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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't see what the big deal is. Everyone seems to have pretty strong feelings about it, even though no one was actually there except Gates and Crowley. I've personally never seen a cop deal well with anyone who did any less than exactly what they wanted, but that's the nature of the job.

    Anyone who is completely against profiling is a moron, imo.

    With that said, it's easy to view the situation in retrospect with preconceived notions but that doesn't make our opinions relevant or helpful.
    Why is being against profiling moronic?

    What's the point of having a jury-based legal system if situations aren't looked at in retrospect by peers with preconceived notions?

  2. #92
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why is being against profiling moronic?

    What's the point of having a jury-based legal system if situations aren't looked at in retrospect by peers with preconceived notions?
    There's a difference between hearing all of the evidence in court and basing decisions on a news article, particularly when the event is hardly relevant to anything. I mean, what change can you seriously expect any of this to cause? It's just entertainment.

    Profiling is a useful tool. For instance, he could have profiled Gate as an unlikely candidate for B&E due to his age. When certain groups act/dress similarly and do similar things frequently, it's kind of ridiculous to ignore that when evaluating a situation. If I saw a car creeping full of young guys wearing the same color with a rag on the mirror, I would profile them as gang bangers. Is that unreasonable? No, it's helpful.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Profiling is a useful tool. For instance, he could have profiled Gate as an unlikely candidate for B&E due to his age. When certain groups act/dress similarly and do similar things frequently, it's kind of ridiculous to ignore that when evaluating a situation.
    Everyone knows this, and yet, plenty of reasonable people have a severe problem with profiling, particularly of the racial sort. Why do you think that is? (serious)

  4. #94
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Everyone knows this, and yet, plenty of reasonable people have a severe problem with profiling, particularly of the racial sort. Why do you think that is? (serious)
    I would guess annoyance and/or insecurity depending on the individual. I've been followed around in stores before by management/employees. I don't shoplift but I can't really be upset about it, because I can reasonably see how they would think I do.

    I really don't think racial profiling is solely about racism. I think the fact that socioeconomic status is so closely linked to race is a bigger factor. Using profiling to pull over a black man in a nice neighborhood wearing a suit and driving a decent car is clearly not a good decision, but don't adopt the appearance of a criminal and not expect to be suspected of being one. If I started driving a blacked out Escalade with 24" spinners on it, it would be really hard for me to be upset at getting pulled over. This clearly isn't related to the Gates/Crowley thing but is related to profiling in general.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #95
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I would guess annoyance and/or insecurity depending on the individual. I've been followed around in stores before by management/employees. I don't shoplift but I can't really be upset about it, because I can reasonably see how they would think I do.

    I really don't think racial profiling is solely about racism. I think the fact that socioeconomic status is so closely linked to race is a bigger factor. Using profiling to pull over a black man in a nice neighborhood wearing a suit and driving a decent car is clearly not a good decision, but don't adopt the appearance of a criminal and not expect to be suspected of being one. If I started driving a blacked out Escalade with 24" spinners on it, it would be really hard for me to be upset at getting pulled over. This clearly isn't related to the Gates/Crowley thing but is related to profiling in general.
    So how is profiling based on classism rather than racism just, especially when socioeconomic class is so heavily tied to accident of birth, rather than any personal decisions on the part of the individual?

  6. #96
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So how is profiling based on classism rather than racism just, especially when socioeconomic class is so heavily tied to accident of birth, rather than any personal decisions on the part of the individual?
    Crime is also heavily influenced by socioeconomic class.

    There's a much higher chance of pulling someone over in a poor neighborhood and finding narcotics than there is pulling over a rich CEO and finding out he's committing fraud or laundering money. I'm not implying it's fair. It's not fair that a lot of people end up criminals who wouldn't have if they had been born in different circumstances. Unfortunately, the law isn't about being fair, it's about preserving order and major interests (whether it should be or not).
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #97
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Crime is also heavily influenced by socioeconomic class.

    There's a much higher chance of pulling someone over in a poor neighborhood and finding narcotics than there is pulling over a rich CEO and finding out he's committing fraud or laundering money. I'm not implying it's fair. It's not fair that a lot of people end up criminals who wouldn't have if they had been born in different circumstances. Unfortunately, the law isn't about being fair, it's about preserving order and major interests (whether it should be or not).
    Is that actually what the law is about, or is that just a popular interpretation of it by the powerful in society? Seems to me that we invented laws in the first place to restrain the powerful.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    This argument is ridiculous. Sure, the country bumpkin ignorance is just something that should be overlooked - because there is no way in hell they could ever damage a person, right? What if they become cops? Whatever.
    I didn't say it should be ignored but come on I'm black and I've seen many black people use racism as an excuse for the things they do. Now I wasn't there at the scene so unless anyone here was we will never know nor can we assume that the professor was innoncent. Anyone regardless of race shows any attitude to the cops will most likely get arrested. It's just fact, the cops were wrong to arrest him in the first place but everyone knows that cops can be corrupt, you are turning this guy into a victim of racism before we even know the facts of the case, right now its a "He said She said" scenario so unless I see absolute proof that the cop was 100% in the wrong I stand by my previous statement.
    Men are like parking spaces/the good ones are always taken and the ones left are handicapped or to small.

  9. #99
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic Darkness View Post
    I didn't say it should be ignored but come on I'm black and I've seen many black people use racism as an excuse for the things they do. Now I wasn't there at the scene so unless anyone here was we will never know nor can we assume that the professor was innoncent. Anyone regardless of race shows any attitude to the cops will most likely get arrested. It's just fact, the cops were wrong to arrest him in the first place but everyone knows that cops can be corrupt, you are turning this guy into a victim of racism before we even know the facts of the case, right now its a "He said She said" scenario so unless I see absolute proof that the cop was 100% in the wrong I stand by my previous statement.
    You're absolutely correct that people go overboard with crap. There would be no life without excuses. I was annoyed with your country bumpkin remark, and how it implied we should be dismissive of those less formally educated - as if the less educated are less of a threat, which is ridiculous.

    As far are racism, I won't entertain this thought anymore on the forum - it's a subjective and futile discussion.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You're absolutely correct that people go overboard with crap. There would be no life without excuses. I was annoyed with your country bumpkin remark, and how it implied we should be dismissive of those less formally educated - as if the less educated are less of a threat, which is ridiculous.

    As far are racism, I won't entertain this thought anymore on the forum - it's a subjective and futile discussion.
    That wasn't exactly how I wanted it to come across but I could see how it would offend someone sorry. What I had originally meant was that although racism isn't over people are far more accepting and far less racist than they were 60 years ago.
    Men are like parking spaces/the good ones are always taken and the ones left are handicapped or to small.

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