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  1. #21
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Global warming is as much a human issue as an issue can ever be.

    I think global warming is one of the most important issues the human race faces.

    I just happen to know poverty and be educated.
    good luck with all that.

  2. #22
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Global warming is as much a human issue as an issue can ever be.
    If you say so. In terms of "danger to our species" I'd say we should be the least concerned, simply because of our ability to dominate the dangers of the environment on a local scale like we do.

    As someone who's going into Sociology with a focus on social stratification, and a sometimes socialist, I'm not moved by this argument.
    I'm not a warming activist, I don't say things to move people. I just try to point things out. If you don't think Climate Change policy and its goals oppress developing nations and continents like Africa, I'd like to see why you don't think so.


    Yes, go ask. You can start with me. I think global warming is one of the most important issues the human race faces. However, rather than asking people anything based on their class, I would put more encouragement on asking people based on their education. I just happen to know poverty and be educated.
    So basically, "they don't know any better. They haven't seen the light like I have, so we can ignore their opinions."



  3. #23
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Flames that added nothing to the thread have been removed, don't worry if you didn't read them, you're not missing anything, trust me.

    Let's keep the personal attacks out of things kids

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    If you say so. In terms of "danger to our species" I'd say we should be the least concerned, simply because of our ability to dominate the dangers of the environment on a local scale like we do.
    Don't commit the composition fallacy. What appears on the micro scale doesn't make clear what's happening on the macro scale. A lot of things look like mere inconveniences, if you keep your scope narrow.

    Besides, what if you were right? We'd still have to do something about it. We'd have to actively use that ability. We can't just say "well, we have the capacity to stop it, so don't worry". That's like when people get so over-confident in polls, they forget to actually go out and vote.

    Anyhow, on top of it all, nothing would surprise me about the human race being blind-sided, or its own technological impact going out of control. I don't perceive people as masters of the environment. Cities, whole civilizations, of grand stature, have already induced their own logistical collapse in our history. As civilization and the human race becomes more globalized, does it not stand to reason that we increase the risk of such a disaster happening on a global scale?


    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm not a warming activist, I don't say things to move people. I just try to point things out. If you don't think Climate Change policy and its goals oppress developing nations and continents like Africa, I'd like to see why you don't think so.
    There's no doubt that developing nations feel the pressure of this, but then, on the other hand, the USA is for example the biggest consumer of oil in the world (and oil consumption plays a big part of this). The USA can attribute a lot of the prestige it has achieved to just how much it consumes. The advanced nations will have to make sacrifices as well. Another issue is that advanced nations tend to act like economic vampires on the poorer nations, and a lot of the ways they do this exploitation is hideously damaging to the environment, and in turn, local life. Putting an end to that (which would be a part of environmental protection) would help developing nations, and especially third world nations (the poorest of all).

    The most powerful, lucrative nations in the world are the biggest opponents to environmental measures. There must be a reason for that.

    That being said, as much as I hate to say it, if preventing the environmental disaster means putting nation building on hold, so be it. I don't think it has to come to that, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    So basically, "they don't know any better. They haven't seen the light like I have, so we can ignore their opinions."
    Well, let's be honest. Should I trust you to give me heart bypass surgery? No, because you don't know anything about it. Education stands for something. It's the mill worker losing his house, vs the environmental scientist. I think there is an imbalance in knowledge on the subject here. It is a tragedy that poverty leads to a depravation of education. That's unfair, and it would be nice to change, but as of now, it's the truth.

    The more educated people are on the subject, the more likely they are to believe in it. The experts that are skeptics are a very small minority. And what can be done about them, anyway?

    And that, when it gets right down to it, is the reason I mostly tire of these discussions. The evidence of global warming, and humanity's influence, is so overwhelming when you actually look for it, that I don't know what other argument could be made. The best thing you can come up with in contrast are few and far between anecdotes like this thread's, which aren't even that hard to rebuke in their own right.

    It's like you're asking for proof of Newtonian laws, or the theory of arithmetic. What can I possibly say that would convince you more than the sea of evidence already established around you by professionals?

    EDIT: You know what, I'll add here that I probably shouldn't have even responded to the other stuff. I mainly felt compelled to comply because of the comment about class and what poor people think, since I've experienced poverty, perhaps not as bad third world poverty, but about as bad as it gets in the USA, oustide of being on the streets. I felt like a category of people I belong to was being incorrectly called upon for support. Oy.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The more education people are on the subject, the more likely they are to believe in it. The experts that are skeptics are a very small minority. And what can be done about them, anyway?
    fallacy with a side of blind-eyed narrow-mindedness.

    plenty can be and has been done about the majority of skeptics (of which there are MANY more than your hawaiian t-shirt wearing, pony-tailed professor of environmental sciences will tell you). they are discredited because too much is invested in the sale of man-made global warming to turn back now.

    what is it that fuels al gore's private jet?

    my hard-earned money. and probably yours too.

  6. #26
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    fallacy with a side of blind-eyed narrow-mindedness.
    Mind telling me what fallacy it was? Perhaps you're going to site a misunderstood version of appeal to authority?

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    plenty can be and has been done about the majority of skeptics
    Who are these people? What majority? What was done about them?

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    (of which there are MANY more than your hawaiian t-shirt wearing, pony-tailed professor of environmental sciences will tell you).
    Oooh, nice ad hominem + straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    they are discredited because too much is invested in the sale of man-made global warming to turn back now.
    Of course. A conspiracy. It would be nice if I had more than your given word. None of this actually counters the argument either. Rather, it attempts to bypass it. Naughty, naughty. Why not give me a counter-argument to the scientific evidence of global warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    what is it that fuels al gore's private jet?

    my hard-earned money. and probably yours too.
    Ahh, snap! Discrediting an argument by framing its most famous proponents as thieves. That's ad hominem + straw man again!

    As lacking as this post was in logos, I grant you that it was positively dripping with pathos.



    Are we done here? Yes, I think so.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #27
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Don't commit the composition fallacy. What appears on the micro scale doesn't make clear what's happening on the macro scale. A lot of things look like mere inconveniences, if you keep your scope narrow.

    Besides, what if you were right? We'd still have to do something about it. We'd have to actively use that ability. We can't just say "well, we have the capacity to stop it, so don't worry". That's like when people get so over-confident in polls, they forget to actually go out and vote.

    Anyhow, on top of it all, nothing would surprise me about the human race being blind-sided, or its own technological impact going out of control. I don't perceive people as masters of the environment. Cities, whole civilizations, of grand stature, have already induced their own logistical collapse in our history. As civilization and the human race becomes more globalized, does it not stand to reason that we increase the risk of such a disaster happening on a global scale?
    I'm actually incredibly surprised to see this sentiment really, you speak as though one day we're going to wake up and there will be 20 extra feet of seawater outside and 10 degrees hotter before we know it. Almost all models predict something between 2-5 degrees [the normal, non sensationalist ones at least] over a period of something like 100 years. Not exactly fast paced change, and considering humanity's technological development from 1900-2000...I'm not really concerned.




    The most powerful, lucrative nations in the world are the biggest opponents to environmental measures. There must be a reason for that.

    That being said, as much as I hate to say it, if preventing the environmental disaster means putting nation building on hold, so be it. I don't think it has to come to that, though.
    The reason is that it hinders economic growth and industrial development, aside from the green industry of course

    It already has come to that though. The UN website itself has an article that says the key to Africa solving its poverty, food, and societal crisis is the industrialization of the country, however worldwide restrictions on emission output specifically would disallow and slow that progress. Nations like the US and Europe have the money to play around with inefficient and expensive alternate energy tech, Africa and other third world countries don't.

    Well, let's be honest. Should I trust you to give me heart bypass surgery? No, because you don't know anything about it. Education stands for something. It's the mill worker losing his house, vs the environmental scientist. I think there is an imbalance in knowledge on the subject here. It is a tragedy that poverty leads to a depravation of education. That's unfair, and it would be nice to change, but as of now, it's the truth.

    The more educated people are on the subject, the more likely they are to believe in it. The experts that are skeptics are a very small minority. And what can be done about them, anyway?

    And that, when it gets right down to it, is the reason I mostly tire of these discussions. The evidence of global warming, and humanity's influence, is so overwhelming when you actually look for it, that I don't know what other argument could be made. The best thing you can come up with in contrast are few and far between anecdotes like this thread's, which aren't even that hard to rebuke in their own right.

    It's like you're asking for proof of Newtonian laws, or the theory of arithmetic. What can I possibly say that would convince you more than the sea of evidence already established around you by professionals?
    I think you misunderstood my little jab, as immature as it was. Your remark just reminded me of the elitist perspective I think all Climate activists have. Climate policy is designed to make sure that in 100 years there is as little impact to status quo as possible. We aren't going anywhere. I always see Climate regulation as trivializing real concerns NOW instead to make way for a better future, however I can tell by your language that you actually foresee catastrophic change in the years ahead, whereas I do not.

    My actual issues with Climate Change don't stem from the science, but from how it has become such a political, media, and economic force. Whenever interest groups get involved, scientific purity is always damaged, and with such a complex scientific system that still isn't perfect, you'd like to limit those external factors. I would at least.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    He's right that there are more polar bears today than there were in the 1970s, but this is mostly because of government regulation that started in the 1970s that protects polar bears. Like the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the The 1973 International Agreement on the Conservation of Polar Bears, between the United States, Russia (at that time, the Soviet Union), Norway, Denmark and Canada.

    FactCheck.org: Are there three times as many polar bears in the Arctic now as there were in the 1970s?

    He didn't seem to really challenge the idea that the ice caps are melting. The evidence towards that is fairly clear.


    Since 1979, the size of the summer polar ice cap has shrunk more than 20 percent. (Illustration from NASA)

    Very good link that you had there to the factcheck.org site. You've brought up a very good point here... He's not challenging the idea that the ice caps are melting. He's challenging the ideas about the actual population size. The fact is, we may be able to count how many bears are out there right now, but there really is no way to know if we have more or less now versus 40 years ago. We have different technology now that gives more accurate measurement data. They just didn't have that then. Their counts were estimates, based off of the best they could do at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    My actual issues with Climate Change don't stem from the science, but from how it has become such a political, media, and economic force. Whenever interest groups get involved, scientific purity is always damaged, and with such a complex scientific system that still isn't perfect, you'd like to limit those external factors. I would at least.
    You have a very good point as well, Jock. I don't believe that most people know how to look at a data set and discern usable data from it, unless they are experienced or educated to know how. I don't know how many times I've seen articles for either side of a scientific debate, such as global warming even, and been shown a graph to represent some crazy conclusive evidence to support a claim.. Most people just don't look closer or question what they are seeing. This polar bear issue is a prime example. Sure, from looking at the data, it would appear that the population is increasing. But is it really? Can the estimates from 40 years ago be trusted? The information was certainly gathered in a much different way..


    An example of misleading information:
    I got into a discussion on my local newspaper's website about this topic. A person posted this website: Global Warming Petition Project. Basically, if you look at it superficially, it seems like there are thousands of scientists out there who believe it's a farce. I researched it further and found some pretty good points to refute it, by other sources:

    -This petition was based upon a paper that was never published for peer review in any scientific journal, apart from a medical journal. It's protocol in the sciences to present a paper to people knowledgeable on the subject, where it can be deemed as plausible or not. It didn't occur with this paper.
    -It lists over 30,000 verified scientists as supporters. The site actually breaks it down by the type of science degree. How many scientists out of 30,000 were actually educated in atmospheric science? <200. They didn't advertise that fact, however.
    -The actual people who did this study, upon further investigation and looking at their other research, has proven to be funded by oil companies. I would see that as a conflict of interest.



    So what I'm saying with that statement above is that there is a lot of "evidence" out there that should be looked at closer and questioned. Anyone can paint a pretty picture and tell a lovely story to make you believe whatever agenda they are trying to push. I question everything, but then, I'm a scientist. I choose to believe in climate change. I'm not sure of what the implications truly are for the future, but I'd rather not take a chance. My opinion is that I have never seen evidence that climate change is not occurring. Before and after pictures of the shrinking glaciers of the world is just too concrete for me to ignore. I don't doubt that we are in a large heating/ cooling trend either... but I do believe we are increasing the rate at which that trend is occuring. In previous ice ages, it happened in a gradual enough time frame to allow for adaptation of plants/ animals. If we increase the rate of occurance too fast, we decrease our chances of survival of some species. It is inevitable that the species become extinct. However, when we humans increase the probability of that, we are affecting our own likelihood of long term survival. Evolution takes time....things don't happen overnight.

    There's the idea that there are certain things you shouldn't ever mention at a party or in a conversation if you want it to go well: politics, religion, abortion.. I'm thinking climate change needs to be added. We are not all going to agree because, depending on what information source you choose to look at, it's easy to be swayed to either idea and to feel pretty strongly about the choice. It really is a core value thing.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Very nice to see you, teammate!
    Thank you so much.
    May the lives of the people be happy, and good, and prosperous.



    An Inconvenient Truth was a good movie, I believe.. It was what first caught my attention. Gotta go hug a tree now!

    no, but really...

  10. #30
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    a sad, lonely polar bear bursting into flames on a small patch of ice.
    I'm a bad person because...BAH HA HA HAAA!

    Also, I think An Inconvenient Truth was a TERRIBLE film. How anyone can watch that and come away with a positive impression of Al Gore, simply on a personal level, is a mystery to me.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

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