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View Poll Results: Should the United States move towards providing universal health care?

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  • Yes

    47 62.67%
  • No

    28 37.33%
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  1. #81
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The size of the state government has doubled over the past 10 years and CA has the highest sales, income, gas, and other taxes in the nation. On top of the amazing tax revenue, this state gets tons of it from other sources like all state economies that don't work in the same math bubble your brain is trapped in. The state gets hundreds of billions in revenue, which isn't surprising since this state alone is AGAIN, between the 7th and 10th (not 12th) largest economy in the world. You are an imbecile if you are seriously trying to blame the entire budget shortfall on federal taxes, which may indeed be high, but are not an excuse for how we spend the hundreds of billions in revenue that we do get.
    Go over your gambling "example" of "I don't have money to spend cus I lost it on gambling" and see how that in any way addresses the point I am making about why California has a federal deficit.

    But either way, let me tell you one thing. It has no bearing on California's SIZE on whether there is a budget deficit or not. I see no reason why California should have less teachers per capita, less police per capita, less federal services per capita than the rest of the country. Once you understand this, you will see that 80 billion a year that California has a federal balance of payment's deficit is a huge contributor to our state's deficit. Size of state doesn't matter because this is an argument about per capita (meaning per person of that state). Federal balance of payments deficit is GREATER than our state budget deficit. It doesn't matter if our federal taxes are high, as long as we get the same "high per capita" figure in RETURN. Which we dont.

    Anyway, yeah, there is nothing we can do about it. Its the nature of federalism. I guess CA deserves a bailout, I just hate to see so many teachers get fired. How they hell can they fire teachers? I know 3 LAUSD teachers who got fired... I mean, jeez.

  2. #82
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Anyways. I think we derailed this thread enough.

    I am all for universal healthcare. But I think they need to seriously study countries like England, Japan, Korea, etc... to see how they did it, and avoid any mistakes they made, and make it as good or better. We'd save billions in litigation costs alone. Insurance lawyers fighting your surgery insurance payment, sheesh. Sick people suing insurance companies for not paying... what a waste of money via litigation

  3. #83
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    This really seems like one of these issues where its more about cheerleading your political party than it is about the merits of the issues.

    Even people that have good insurance still have holes in their coverage.........they just haven't found out yet.

  4. #84
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    Unlimited health care is simply too expensive. Costs must be contained somehow. In Canada, we do it by lowering the quality of care for everyone. It's not the model to emulate.

  5. #85
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    i paidd about 50 euro for a well done knee scope with trasnportation home and rehab last year. total time from first visit to surgery was a week.

    in contrast, the surgeon left the room long enough for my anaesthesia to wear off when i cut my hand in the states. As an adult, i could not health insurance in the states, but with a simple fulltime job in germany had full coverage with the carrier of my choice.

  6. #86
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    i paidd about 50 euro for a well done knee scope with trasnportation home and rehab last year. total time from first visit to surgery was a week.

    in contrast, the surgeon left the room long enough for my anaesthesia to wear off when i cut my hand in the states. As an adult, i could not health insurance in the states, but with a simple fulltime job in germany had full coverage with the carrier of my choice.

  7. #87
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Taxing the rich can pay for a lot, even just using a flat tax, no less a progressive tax. The issue is that there are myriad ways for the wealthy to wiggle out of paying them. That is the root of more than a few problems in the US.

    Also, I question again, the aggregate expenses of healthcare. How much of the expenses are frivolous, and totalled up by those who can afford the frivolous?

    This is also a reason I favor tort reform. Whenever some sues for millions of bucks for something reall stupid and forewarned, it makes healthcare more expensive for everyone.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #88
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post

    ...

    I have friends in England who have National Health Care available to them but when they've gotten sick or had a toothache, they got an appointment for 2 weeks down the road. Some people don't HAVE 2 weeks to wait.
    That is because dental and optical treatment is only partially covered as the NHS; the NHS does not actually run 'standard' dental and optical practices.

    Under Atlee's government, when former minster for heath and godfather of the National Health Service, Nye Bevan, became minster for labour he resign almost immediately from his cabinet position in protest of introduction of prescription charge; which pretty much split the Labour Party. If Nye Bevan had his way dental and optical treatment would be completely covered and run by the government.

    In the UK one has the choice to go completely private for dentist treatment or go to one that is part subsidised by the NHS but run and owned privately. As both types are both essentially privately owned and run, the only difference between them is an NHS dentist has agreed willingly to treat and give care at a set cost with government, which will be partly covered by the government and partly by the patient, whereas a totally private dentist can charge whatever they want. Hence, as dental care is not run by the government, the length of time of an appointment is not really anything to do with the government. Unlike doctors either in a hospital or a doctors surgery which are ran by the government, a dentist does not have to take on any patients nor are they required to make a appointments in a set time. For this reason, it is not unusual for people going to A&E to get their tooth pulled out, because private so called NHS dentists refuse to take on people at NHS rates as it is not considered cost effective.

    Let me tell you a story about 'cost effectiveness'. Falcarius' last NHS dentist was essentially a malefactor, who tried to pull one of his teeth out because it was more cost effective than giving him a filling. The only reason he gave Falcarius a filling in the end, was because Falcarius knew he was talking rubbish when he said he needed the tooth out. After Falcarius waited months to sign on a different NHS dentist for a second opinion, he was told what he already knew that the other dentist had lied. Falcarius made an appointment with the original dentist, sat in the dentist chair, opened his book of George Bernard Shaw's plays to the preface to 'The Doctor's Dilemma', and told the dentist if he did not refund him for the first appointment and pay for the treatment at the other dentist, Falcarius would not only make a official complaint but physically refuse to leave until he got his money. Even if it meant staying there for weeks on end, while only reading the preface to the play out allowed over and over. To cut the story short, Falcarius got his money, but this is not an infrequent case as it happens all the time.

    If private heath care is better, then why does a doctor funded completely by tax not amputate ones arm when one has a broken wrist, whereas a part subsidised private dentist is seemingly unable of the equivalent, resorting to pulling ones teeth out when all that's needed is a tooth filling?
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    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  9. #89
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    Falcrius needs to stop giving ''this is more the rare exception, not the rule'' annecdotal stories in the third person because when falcarius speaks in third person it doesn't make his experience any closer to being the norm. Risen hopes falcarius understands .

  10. #90
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Falcrius needs to stop giving ''this is more the rare exception, not the rule'' annecdotal stories in the third person because when falcarius speaks in third person it doesn't make his experience any closer to being the norm. Risen hopes falcarius understands .
    Well, that might be why he also provided an insightful explanation of how some of the structure of medical coverage in his country works, which may be enlightening to certain readers.
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