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View Poll Results: Should the United States move towards providing universal health care?

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  • Yes

    47 62.67%
  • No

    28 37.33%
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Results 61 to 70 of 146

  1. #61
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Anyone have any idea how many illegal aliens who don't pay taxes or pay into the health care system clog the emergency rooms in California? Whatever the number is, I'm sure it can't be helping the wait times....
    Oh, and now you want to bring up illegals. Well, maybe that's their reward for being necessary to the continuation of our economy. We might be able to fix that problem with amnesty plans, or maybe some sort of North American Union.


    But seriously speaking, both this and your comment about that news report (which has so little details that I have no idea how accurate your interpretation is) could easily be solved by some departmental priotization. No need to reject national healthcare. Reserve a certain number of beds just for taking care of child birth (I would figure they are already doing that, so I'm confused) and make it higher priority than various other things, because people being born is very important to the country. Solves the problem, I think. You can repeat ideas like this with other issues.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #62
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    My androgynous chocolate wrapping friend is correct about the article.

    You've chosen to look at a specialized pediatric department who really have supply chain issues. They had all the staff, medicine, and space they need.

  3. #63
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But seriously speaking, both this and your comment about that news report (which has so little details that I have no idea how accurate your interpretation is) could easily be solved by some departmental priotization. No need to reject national healthcare. Reserve a certain number of beds just for taking care of child birth (I would figure they are already doing that, so I'm confused) and make it higher priority than various other things, because people being born is very important to the country. Solves the problem, I think. You can repeat ideas like this with other issues.
    what if they were already doing that and they still were still full?

    what you're suggesting is the very problem with government run health care. the idea that other people are determing how much care you are able to receive, not you or your wallet.

    or another way to think about health care is as a limited resource. limited resources in the US are typically allocated based on how much people are willing to pay. if i have a sprained thumb i probably won't need it treated immediatly or willing to pay excessive amounts of money to treat it. if i have colon cancer, i would probably be willing to pay large amounts of money to receive immediate care... now, who should be the one deciding how quickly and what level of care i receive? the government or me?

    no one, i repeat, no one has your interests 100% in mind except for you. the government -- the politicians, bureaucrats and administrators who represent us -- are NEVER going to have you 100% in mind when making decisions. they have millions of voices screaming at them and they simply incapable of satisfying the needs of everyone fully.

    who do you trust more, yourself or your government?
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  4. #64
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    what if they were already doing that and they still were still full?
    They must have had a ton of people on the verge of death, or very tiny buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    what you're suggesting is the very problem with government run health care. the idea that other people are determing how much care you are able to receive, not you or your wallet.
    That's always the case. In our system right now, neither you nor your wallet decide jack. How do you decide anything without money to open your options? You basically don't, so that leaves everything on your wallet. But what value does your wallet serve in all of this? There are people in high places who decide that. There are always people in high places who decide this.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    or another way to think about health care is as a limited resource. limited resources in the US are typically allocated based on how much people are willing to pay. if i have a sprained thumb i probably won't need it treated immediatly or willing to pay excessive amounts of money to treat it. if i have colon cancer, i would probably be willing to pay large amounts of money to receive immediate care... now, who should be the one deciding how quickly and what level of care i receive? the government or me?
    Why not doctors, people who know more about the subject than you do? The point is silly anyway, because if my well being were all up to me, I guess I'd just shoot anyone that got between me and my healthcare. There's a reason that total individualism and self-determination is not inherently good. Society, by nature, is partially collectivist, and they will always have governments who, as is their purpose, will have to prioritize. You argument is not persuading me, becuse the only alternatives I'm imaging here are ones that could never manifest anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    no one, i repeat, no one has your interests 100% in mind except for you. the government -- the politicians, bureaucrats and administrators who represent us -- are NEVER going to have you 100% in mind when making decisions. they have millions of voices screaming at them and they simply incapable of satisfying the needs of everyone fully.
    I know that. That's why I was mentioning priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    who do you trust more, yourself or your government?
    Myself. But unfortunately, I can't do everything myself, and I don't know everything myself. I trust myself more, but I can't afford to leave it all up to myself, or not trust the government at all.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    What do immigration issues have to do with one of the worst medical systems of all industrialized countries? You can't scape goat and say "its all the beaners fault".

    Besides if we relaxed immigration law, allowed the illegals to stay here, they would pay taxes and become productive members of society.
    It has a great deal to do with it considering people who aren't supposed to be in the country are encouraged to come in and take advantage of public services, and I can only see it getting worse when most health care is government run and fully paid for through taxes, which illegals don't pay into. In other words, the system we'd adopt would be carrying them too. CA accounts for 32% of the nation's welfare services, and at least 10 billion a year goes to non US citizens in the state. Now guess which state currently cant afford to keep itself going. Bunch of dolts...

  6. #66
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Learn not to rely on so called smart people and to simply be smart yourself, because the smart and enlightened ones have a long historical track record of doing things that are anything but smart and enlightened, but it happens because it is the nature of people to want to exalt leaders who they feel are better than themselves, but the truth is you all have the same basic flaws and you are merely succeeding in giving a select few power and control that you are not willing to take for yourself. I can boil all of societies problems down to basic principles such as this. It's truly amazing.
    whats amazing?

    its as amazing as boiling all of societies problems down to a lack of proper upbringing as well.

  7. #67
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Now guess which state currently cant afford to keep itself going. Bunch of dolts...
    its because of all the federal taxes we pay.

    we pay $80 billion more in federal taxes, than we receive in federal services.

    its really that simple. thats how much our budget shortfall is.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    whats amazing?

    its as amazing as boiling all of societies problems down to a lack of proper upbringing as well.
    It's amazing that there is a common root that is technically attached to all societal problems, and yet people often do not or cannot acknowledge it, a predicament that is also tied to the basic psychology underpinning the habits and conduct of just about every individual homo sapien, though it presents itself much more prominently when viewed at the macro level (groups of humans). Individuals have the ability to abate their basic nature, and this certainly carries over into the collective at times, but to much less of an effect. If I could sum it up in one way, I could say that society/collective acts on an instinctual and primitive level, while the individual is more dynamic and complex. Fully acknowledging these facts, it is quite easy to predict the movements of groups of people. One simply has to accept the less than flattering aspects to what one would call human nature.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    its because of all the federal taxes we pay.

    we pay $80 billion more in federal taxes, than we receive in federal services.

    its really that simple. thats how much our budget shortfall is.
    That's not the REASON we have a shortfall. The reason we have a shortfall is mismanagement of the state considering the costs we HAVE TO PAY. That's as half assed an argument as saying "I gamble everyday, and I'm broke because I have to pay for food this week." Yes, food takes a chunk of money from your pocket, but it's the god damn waste of money at the casino that makes it so you can't pay your bills! Give me a f***ing break.

  10. #70
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    That's not the REASON we have a shortfall. The reason we have a shortfall is mismanagement of the state considering the costs we HAVE TO PAY. That's as half assed an argument as saying "I gamble everyday, and I'm broke because I have to pay for food this week." Yes, food takes a chunk of money from your pocket, but it's the god damn waste of money at the casino that makes it so you can't pay your bills! Give me a f***ing break.
    Ah. I clearly see you don't understand my argument.

    The Imbalance in Context: California’s Return on the Dollar
    The taxing-versus-spending imbalance means that every California man, woman, and child paid $1,409 more in federal taxes in 2003 than he or she received in federal funds and services. The per capita discrepancy was the state’s second highest on record; the 2000 amount was slightly more – $1,423.

    Put slightly differently, California received 79 cents in federal payments and services for every dollar sent to Washington. The “return on the dollar” figure represents a decline from 98 cents in 1994 and 90 cents in 1998, and it is a record low return for the state.


    The balance of payments figure is calculated by comparing federal spending attributable to each state (excluding spending in territories and non-allocable costs such as intelligence, overseas operations, and interest on the national debt) against federal tax and fee revenue dollars collected by states. The tax burden figure is then adjusted to provide an "apples-to-apples" comparison between the two numbers. For more details, see Methodology, below.
    California's Balance of Payments with the Federal Treasury, Fiscal Years 1981-2003 -- A Special Report by the California Institute for Federal Policy Research

    In 2003, the federal government spent a total of $6,192 per capita in California, compared to $6,910 per capita nationwide, a spending shortfall for the state of 12 percent.

    On the taxation side of the ledger, Californians paid in $6,611 per capita to the federal treasury, compared to a national average of $6,011 per capita, or a discrepancy of 9 percent.
    its very simple. We pay more, than we receive. Your gambling analogy is flawed. You see, its like going to the bank and asking for 5 one dollar bills for your 5 dollar bill. But you get 4 dollars in return. And then you have a 20% budget shortfall.

    This argument isn't going to go away... its best to confront it for what it is.

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