User Tag List

View Poll Results: Should the United States move towards providing universal health care?

Voters
75. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    47 62.67%
  • No

    28 37.33%
First 412131415 Last

Results 131 to 140 of 146

  1. #131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What the hell are you talking about?
    We were discussing the so called "death panels", I was contrasting two committee room scenes, the private/"capitalist"/US popular one is that of boardroom execs making the decisions, all very natural because its a marketplace, the other is the public/"socialist"/Euro popular one were its "apparatniks", ie state employees, bureaucrats, whatever doing the decision making.

  2. #132
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    I wonder if the USA will still support universal health care when they realize that in order to keep that kind of a system running along with social security, education, and all the other things they still want (plus a strong military presence) they will have to give at least 50% of their income to the federal and/or state government. I really do wonder.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  3. #133
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I wonder if the USA will still support universal health care when they realize that in order to keep that kind of a system running along with social security, education, and all the other things they still want (plus a strong military presence) they will have to give at least 50% of their income to the federal and/or state government. I really do wonder.
    How so? I do believe that many countries with a universal healthcare system ultimately pay a lower average percentage of income in the form of income taxes than the USA. And it's a pretty damn safe guess that most of those countries have better education. The loophole here, is I did only look at income tax. If the taxation is going to come from somewhere else, than I'd be missing that, and maybe those counties do have higher total taxation by other means. You're in one of those countries are you not? So how much are you taxed, and what portions of it are divided up into different kinds of taxation?

    It is true that Americans have a tax phobia, which had a lot to do with the birth of the nation. For me personally, I'll accept 50% taxation if the results are good.

    And about that military expenditure... We could definitely cut that down.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #134
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How so? I do believe that many countries with a universal healthcare system ultimately pay a lower average percentage of income in the form of income taxes than the USA. And it's a pretty damn safe guess that most of those countries have better education. The loophole here, is I did only look at income tax. If the taxation is going to come from somewhere else, than I'd be missing that, and maybe those counties do have higher total taxation by other means. You're in one of those countries are you not? So how much are you taxed, and what portions of it are divided up into different kinds of taxation?

    It is true that Americans have a tax phobia, which had a lot to do with the birth of the nation. For me personally, I'll accept 50% taxation if the results are good.

    And about that military expenditure... We could definitely cut that down.
    1. I don't know where these countries are, but the countries I'm talking about (with superior, very good health care) generally require their citizens to take a huge chunk out of their salaries to pay for it.

    Germany is a perfect example. Working as a part-time teacher, I earn 1889 or so but I bring home only 1170, and it's only THAT much because I am the breadwinner and in a lower tax bracket. So, I have to work 3-4 jobs to keep the family afloat.

    It's cool. I like the system, so I'm willing to take the disadvantages along with the advantages. But I wonder: Are Americans willing to give up half of their paychecks (or more) to pay for health care?

    2. Countries in Europe (Scandinavia, Western Europe) have a strong tradition of universal health care, which is so ingrained in the political consciousness that if you took it away, you'd have a revolution. Even Thatcher did not touch universal health care (she was also donned the nickname the 'Iron Lady'), but she knew which battles to fight and which to better leave behind.

    This tradition is not a part of the US. Of course, this can change, but you don't have the same backing and dedication as in Europe.

    Canada is a good example of how one man CAN INDEED change the perceptions of the people, get things rolling, and actually institute another system, namely universal health care. However, I'd venture a guess that you did not have dozens of pharmaceutical companies and HMOs that bought off Senators and Representatives by the dozen or watered down their reforms so much that they weren't worth jack shit. You also have a completely different mentality.

    Remember, most of these people were smart enough to realize after WWII that they had better get their asses in gear and help their own citizens. Alas, the United States still sits on her high horse because she has never had to go through catastrophic war zones or anything of the sort. She'd rather spend her money on a military apparatus designed at controlling forces she cannot even fully manipulate now.

    When push comes to shove, the American people have to make a choice. I'm not really sure they are mature enough to make this decision. When saying that, I'm not casting any aspersions on the American people - they are a 'young people' in the history of the world and have much to learn. I hope indeed that they realize the term 'America First' does not only mean major corporations, but the people themselves. I hope at some point they do indeed see the value of universal health care. I hope at some point they do indeed see the value of universal education. I hope at some point they do indeed reevaluate their skewed priorities in favor of their own people.

    However, until they do, I fail to see how this system will ever be really changed. You don't have the backup, the support, the infrastructure, or the finances. Even if the American people WANT it now, how can they maintain it?

    Folks, you're on the Titanic. My suggestion? Get out while you can. Pretty soon, no one will want to take you on board. I saw this coming....and I'm glad I got my ass out while the going was good.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  5. #135
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    1. I don't know where these countries are, but the countries I'm talking about (with superior, very good health care) generally require their citizens to take a huge chunk out of their salaries to pay for it.

    Germany is a perfect example. Working as a part-time teacher, I earn 1889 or so but I bring home only 1170, and it's only THAT much because I am the breadwinner and in a lower tax bracket. So, I have to work 3-4 jobs to keep the family afloat.

    It's cool. I like the system, so I'm willing to take the disadvantages along with the advantages. But I wonder: Are Americans willing to give up half of their paychecks (or more) to pay for health care?


    See. A number of countries with commendable healthcare systems that have lower personal income tax than the USA. A number with taxes that aren't much higher, too. The deifnite majority under 50%.

    But Germany, wow! It actually looks like you are relatively untaxed(presumably for the reasons you gave).

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    2. Countries in Europe (Scandinavia, Western Europe) have a strong tradition of universal health care, which is so ingrained in the political consciousness that if you took it away, you'd have a revolution. Even Thatcher did not touch universal health care (she was also donned the nickname the 'Iron Lady'), but she knew which battles to fight and which to better leave behind.

    This tradition is not a part of the US. Of course, this can change, but you don't have the same backing and dedication as in Europe.
    I don't like this cultural tradition approach for about two reasons.

    1: It's extremely difficult to qualitatively or quantitatively analyze. The very nature and existence of national culture is itself in limbo in the field of sociology.

    2: Believing in it tends to have a markedly unprogressive, status-quo supporting effect. If we can't make changes that step outside of the cultural norm, and the cultural norm is pegged to a past standard, then that means nothing can change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Canada is a good example of how one man CAN INDEED change the perceptions of the people, get things rolling, and actually institute another system, namely universal health care. However, I'd venture a guess that you did not have dozens of pharmaceutical companies and HMOs that bought off Senators and Representatives by the dozen or watered down their reforms so much that they weren't worth jack shit. You also have a completely different mentality.
    Switzerland did have those bolded things when it instated UHC. However, I concede that Switzerland's politcal system is so much more decentralized that it would have been harder to purchase political control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Remember, most of these people were smart enough to realize after WWII that they had better get their asses in gear and help their own citizens. Alas, the United States still sits on her high horse because she has never had to go through catastrophic war zones or anything of the sort. She'd rather spend her money on a military apparatus designed at controlling forces she cannot even fully manipulate now.
    I guess what we need is a bigger defeat then, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    When push comes to shove, the American people have to make a choice. I'm not really sure they are mature enough to make this decision. When saying that, I'm not casting any aspersions on the American people - they are a 'young people' in the history of the world and have much to learn. I hope indeed that they realize the term 'America First' does not only mean major corporations, but the people themselves. I hope at some point they do indeed see the value of universal health care. I hope at some point they do indeed see the value of universal education. I hope at some point they do indeed reevaluate their skewed priorities in favor of their own people.

    However, until they do, I fail to see how this system will ever be really changed. You don't have the backup, the support, the infrastructure, or the finances. Even if the American people WANT it now, how can they maintain it?
    Well, we have the largest GDP in the world (not counting the EU as one entitity) and one of the largest GDP PCs. We also have very advanced technology. The capacity to get these social reforms done is in some ways more in our grasp than it was in the hands of so many of the countries that have already done it. Again, the only real problem is cultural, social, psychological, political, or whatever you want to call it. It's a position of the mind. And if that never changed, no referom would have ever happened. It must be possible somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Folks, you're on the Titanic. My suggestion? Get out while you can. Pretty soon, no one will want to take you on board. I saw this coming....and I'm glad I got my ass out while the going was good.
    I've seriously considered that, but many things have been hanging me up.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #136
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    Thank you for your graph regarding tax systems, which was interesting (albeit old data - perhaps newer data is not available).

    Actually the problem I see is not really the fact that other countries cannot manage or that the US cannot manage. My point is that these countries give up a disproportionately high amount of tax dollars without all the additional spending Americans have with regard to their military expenditure. Meaning: If countries that do not require a traditionally strong army (or a large one) have to give up 50% in taxes (or even 30-40%) to maintain SS and UHC then I wonder how much they would have to pay if they indeed had a military apparatus like Americans do?

    Now, you are going to mention Switzerland, but remember: Switzerland has several advantages, including a well-organized populace and institutions, structural integrity, neutrality, huge amounts of financial resources, a relatively strict policy with regard to immigration, a relatively small number of people to care for, geographical advantages, etc., etc. You cannot really in all fairness compare Switzerland with the United States. The systems, the ideas, the people, the culture (as much as you'd like to dismiss that subjective factor), and the psychology and precedent are all COMPLETELY different.

    Do you see what I'm saying??? Sure it's doable to have UHC, but in order to be feasible, a major restructuring of the budget will have to occur because you cannot raise taxes to 70% or something to cover it along with all the other major programs. Most of the other countries on that list does not have the same military presence all over the world (even still in GERMANY!!!!!) that other countries have.

    The American people won't stand for taxes being raised to high levels. Then again, you can't cut SS or any other important programs, or else you'll have a bunch of voters against you, not to mention lobbyists.

    And you can't cut the military because...well we won't go there.

    So what programs are you going to cut in order to make this plan affordable? What necessary programs will have to be sacrificed? Or are Americans going to be suddenly okay with the government grabbing 50-70% of their income to support UHC and SS and the military and education and disability and infrastructure and and and and....Of course people SAY politicians should cut unnecessary spending, but they won't do that either, because they are short-sighted, dull-witted people who only think in the moment, and don't bother to learn from the past much less look to the future.

    All this needs to be seen in light that the US is already heavily dependent on domestic and foreign loans to keep it afloat as it is. Eventually, the system will collapse, and you will not be able to afford ANY of these programs, become vulnerable from within and without and fall just like the Roman Empire.

    OF COURSE we all want universal health care. I think it would be a pretty illogical, heartless, downright EVIL person to say who gives a flying eff what happens to my people. The point is: Even though we all want it, know it's the best, etc. it is JUST NOT POSSIBLE. Not unless a complete restructuring occurs, and I doubt that the powers that be will allow THAT to happen in all honesty.

    I hope you're right and I'm wrong. Maybe America CAN change. Maybe her politicians are not totally corrupted by military, HMO and pharma lobbyists. Maybe her citizens will indeed trust the government enough to let her pillage and rob their pockets. Maybe her institutions will support these systems without complete bureaucracy bungling up the works. I HOPE SO. But is it REALISTIC?

    I think not. Unfortunately. And it will cost you in the long run. Big time.

    P.S. As an aside, I think that cultural and political concerns are INDEED important. In fact, since we are talking about PEOPLE within systems and not the systems devoid of people, I think the cultural, relational and political concerns are indeed MORE important.

    Separating people from the system is like separating people from psychology. It's irrational, makes no sense, and totally misses the point.

    But that is just my perspective. I'm an evo feeler, remember!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #137
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    P.S. As an aside, I think that cultural and political concerns are INDEED important. In fact, since we are talking about PEOPLE within systems and not the systems devoid of people, I think the cultural, relational and political concerns are indeed MORE important.

    Separating people from the system is like separating people from psychology. It's irrational, makes no sense, and totally misses the point.

    But that is just my perspective. I'm an evo feeler, remember!
    I just want to address this specifically.

    I'm the last person to draw an artificial seperation between sociology, government, and economics. They are essentially arbitrarily defined sub-categories of the same thing. My complaint is that statements like "[such and such country] does not have the right culture to solve the problem" contains no concrete details, for either proving that it's true, how it's true, or what can be done about it. It is uninsightful.

    I can logically conclude that culture is somehow involved in what goes on in the USA. However, such a general conclusion does not account for much. If I can find no scientific or mathematical evidence of what's going in the USA in greater detail, than I do not have enough information to try building a policy on the premise of how the USA's culture works.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #138
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I just want to address this specifically.

    I'm the last person to draw an artificial seperation between sociology, government, and economics. They are essentially arbitrarily defined sub-categories of the same thing. My complaint is that statements like "[such and such country] does not have the right culture to solve the problem" contains no concrete details, for either proving that it's true, how it's true, or what can be done about it. It is uninsightful.

    I can logically conclude that culture is somehow involved in what goes on in the USA. However, such a general conclusion does not account for much. If I can find no scientific or mathematical evidence of what's going in the USA in greater detail, than I do not have enough information to try building a policy on the premise of how the USA's culture works.
    I did not really know how in-depth you would like me to go on this point. Several people accuse me of 'going on a tangent' or 'going Ne-wild,' if you prefer to put things in the context of MBTI. If you prefer, I could elaborate on this issue. If I had to make an outline, it would entail:

    - historical precedent, particularly concerning the American Angst with regard to government
    - political precedent, particularly concerning the power lobbyists and money play in the political system
    - infrastructure, particularly concerning HMOs and their transferral to governmental entities, including massive layoffs, difference in mentality, etc.
    - psychological and sociological factors, including payment/control of finances (i.e. the lack of control in the hands of the people), mentality (work ethic, personal responsibility, and other psychological factors related to the 'American Dream'), and the inherent problems shifting from a free market capitalist system to a social market capitalist system considering the factors listed above
    - inertia inherent in a democratic system and the potential to turn to violence at any sign of vehement and dramatic change that is either turned inward (1865, 1963, etc.) or outward (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc.)
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  9. #139
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I did not really know how in-depth you would like me to go on this point. Several people accuse me of 'going on a tangent' or 'going Ne-wild,' if you prefer to put things in the context of MBTI. If you prefer, I could elaborate on this issue. If I had to make an outline, it would entail:

    - historical precedent, particularly concerning the American Angst with regard to government
    - political precedent, particularly concerning the power lobbyists and money play in the political system
    - infrastructure, particularly concerning HMOs and their transferral to governmental entities, including massive layoffs, difference in mentality, etc.
    - psychological and sociological factors, including payment/control of finances (i.e. the lack of control in the hands of the people), mentality (work ethic, personal responsibility, and other psychological factors related to the 'American Dream'), and the inherent problems shifting from a free market capitalist system to a social market capitalist system considering the factors listed above
    - inertia inherent in a democratic system and the potential to turn to violence at any sign of vehement and dramatic change that is either turned inward (1865, 1963, etc.) or outward (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, etc.)
    Trying to get a grip on these things makes mathematical economics seem simple and easy. I'm looking for you to actually provide your objective evidence. That is an unreasonable expectation for this subject. Rather, my point is, because it is so difficult to make an accurate assessment of abstract culture, and because changing culture is itself aways an intrinsic part of any political development, I feel there isn't much of a point in trying to analyze the feasibility of this policy on the grounds of cultural inclination.

    I'd prefer to focus on those things can we more easily analyze and hopefully through using those things to prove the feasibility and the benefits of UHC, we can build a compelling case that can be used in persuading the culture to change.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #140
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/so
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,927

    Default

    Has anyone considered that between Federal income tax, state income tax, municipal taxes, county taxes, special district (school) taxes, and fees for titles, registrations, licenses, etc. that Americans already are paying 50% of their salaries in taxes, or damn near close to it?

    Seriously. We're paying that much now, and outside of the world's most bad ass military, we have shit to show for it. No one can guarantee that social security will be solvent when we retire. No one can guarantee that Medicare will be worth a shit 30 years from now. Except for a great military, U.S. citizens aren't guaranteed shit for the huge contributions they make to the (several and duplicative) governments they fund.

    Bottom line is this, as a U.S. citizen, unless you are an elite who is benefitting from the revenues of a huge government contract, or a very poor person who is getting benefits from the system, you are getting ass raped.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

Similar Threads

  1. House Republicans released the American Health Care Act
    By Bush Did 9/11 in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 93
    Last Post: 07-28-2017, 05:17 PM
  2. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 07-21-2015, 03:35 PM
  3. US House + health care bill
    By Usehername in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 165
    Last Post: 11-15-2009, 04:23 PM
  4. Chuck Norris does not Approve of the Health Care Reform.
    By Gewitter27 in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-30-2009, 03:45 PM
  5. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 08-14-2009, 04:48 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO