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View Poll Results: Should the United States move towards providing universal health care?

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  • Yes

    47 62.67%
  • No

    28 37.33%
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  1. #111
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I don't know. I think probably health insurance should still exist, just not as health care. It should behave as insurance. Things that one is always going to lose the bet of insurance on, like physicals, prescriptions, etc, should be paid for directly, and perhaps if necessary health expenses go over a certain amount of your income determined by your tax bracket, you would be reimbursed, like a subsidy or something.

    ...if that makes any sense.
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  2. #112
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    Right now outside my work its all snow and ice. I could go out there slide crack my head open and I would get taken straight to accident and emergancy. And for what price? A slightly higher income tax? On my wage I would pay the equivilent of $350.46 more a year!
    And thats all my health care sorted. Tell me. Does you health insurance policy cost more than that? Because if so then on a lower end salary like mine its cheaper!!! Not more expensive.
    Oh, wow, you'd have to pay more taxes because you had an accident while going in/out of work? Here work-related insurance would actually pay you at least around 10'000 euros for the injury (much more if it's a serious one), and rise the costs of the company (next time, of course, the company will try to clean all the parking lots, so that the premium doesn't rise even more steeply).

    Things that one is always going to lose the bet of insurance on, like physicals, prescriptions, etc, should be paid for directly, and perhaps if necessary health expenses go over a certain amount of your income determined by your tax bracket, you would be reimbursed, like a subsidy or something.
    You're embedding a part of the problem: the bet of health insurance is extremely risky for providing companies, thus if prices are not averaged out (as it's done with universal health care) among the population, those with the highest risks (the highest likelihood of netting the premium) are those most likely not to be insured. This can be seen as a market failure, because it's the same principle on which state-intervention on big investment is based: it's really unlikely that a private company will run the risk of building an extremely large infrastructure (railways, really long stretches of highways, etc.), thus the state tries to mitigate this failure of the natural market mechanism by means of intervention.
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  3. #113
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Oh, wow, you'd have to pay more taxes because you had an accident while going in/out of work? Here work-related insurance would actually pay you at least around 10'000 euros for the injury (much more if it's a serious one), and rise the costs of the company (next time, of course, the company will try to clean all the parking lots, so that the premium doesn't rise even more steeply).

    no the $350.46 figure is for all healthcare. Thats how much more tax I pay in the UK prefered to what I would if I earned the same in the US. In exchange I get all my healthcare covered. The slipping and cracking my head open was just a random example!

    I'll edit that as I can see why it might confuse.
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  4. #114
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    no the $350.46 figure is for all healthcare. Thats how much more tax I pay in the UK prefered to what I would if I earned the same in the US. In exchange I get all my healthcare covered. The slipping and cracking my head open was just a random example!

    I'll edit that as I can see why it might confuse.
    Ah okay! Got it. So you're saying that given your salary, it would be cheaper for you to be insured. Yeah, makes sense, since you're a young man.
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  5. #115
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    While this IS a decision for Americans depending on the outcome a new "social contract" will have to be struck with the world.

    If the US were to have spending commitments other than the military it could circulate the money and possible avoid the destabilising and crisis causing economic contradictions which it has encountered lately. There wont always be a war need fighting, perpetual war for perpetual peace isnt going to be popular forever in the US, for wildly different reasons its unpopular with both the left and right in the US.

    If its becoming ethically or economically deficit for the US to be militarily intervening globally with every budget some way has to be found to circulate the money, in the UK after the war when Pax Britannia went into decline and Churchill handed over superpower status to the US with the atomic bomb, other tech and largely the expectations of shattered Red Menaced Europe the UK used social and health spending.

    It seems popular with US voters too, there are problems, if Pax US didnt exist or couldnt exist in the same fashion what replaces it? I know Bush co. wanted Germany et al to re-establish themselves as military powers, I dont know about that, I know that a lot of right wingers arent as worried about the history of Nazism, apart from the holocaust, as everyone else but I dont think its a good thing. Not sure that either Russia or China would make good hegemons (Russia has been responsible for some serious unreported menacing of the UK, particularly any time the UK gov. talks about trying to discover energy reserves of the UK coastline).

    Health spending also brings other contradictions which I dont believe any nation has ironed out, like reciprocity, obligation, responsibilities, without some how codifying norms of shame and disgrace for misuse or abuse of services the results will be terrible (Japan has managed this, to some extent so has Sweden but the Swedish are not becoming isolationist and even racist because they feel immigrants do not share their values and will abuse their welfare regime).

    I'm not sure, as a consequence of consumerism or capitalism, that the UK or US are particularly attuned to this kind of provision (I still support it though) and therefore there's a problem with it just becoming another entitlement for free loaders, with publically employed professionals risking life and limb intervening to try and help them towards a healthy state of being which they dont value themselves.

    Even were it doesnt run aground on reefs of that kind the ship of state then has to deal with increased longevity etc. the consequences of its own success.

  6. #116
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    Yes. Of course.
    The United States is an awfully backwards country. We don't even use the metric system.
    Our health care system is expensive and inefficient. We are 50th in the world in life expectancy, according to the CIA Fact Book. Also our infant mortality rate is high. These statistics are abysmal. If we had universal health care, that situation should improve.

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  7. #117
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed something, but I missed a single explanation as to why the situation in the US is different than in Europe (or anywhere else with universal), thus making Universal Health Care not applicable in the US.

    I think that would be the point that could prove or disprove whether we should have it*.


    Of course, crippling debt (mentioned) is a big reason why we should not have it now (or soon), but doesn't rule out the future possibility.



    *Moral/ethical arguments also apply, but just because something is nice doesn't mean it will work, hence my reasoning above.

    Is there something specific to the US economy or health care system which would make universal health care non-functional or worse than what we have now? Short-term? Long-term?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #118
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but I missed a single explanation as to why the situation in the US is different than in Europe (or anywhere else with universal), thus making Universal Health Care not applicable in the US.

    Is there something specific to the US economy or health care system which would make universal health care non-functional or worse than what we have now? Short-term? Long-term?
    A possible issue is the higher Gini Index (thus, higher wealth inequality) of the US in comparison to the European states (which could partially be caused by higher heterogeneity of the population), which would mean that rich people would probably carry an higher burden, compared to European riches. Of course, it all depends on exactly how you finance health care, each european nation has its own system.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #119
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    A possible issue is the higher Gini Index (thus, higher wealth inequality) of the US in comparison to the European states (which could partially be caused by higher heterogeneity of the population), which would mean that rich people would probably carry an higher burden, compared to European riches. Of course, it all depends on exactly how you finance health care, each european nation has its own system.
    If anything, that would just lower the Gini. I generally don't take the explanation "it would cost rich people a lot of money" as a particularly damning criticism.

    I say, if you want a plan for how the USA can do universal healthcare, look at Switzerland's. Yes, the country is different from this one in a lot of ways, but, it is similar in a lot of ways crucial to this subject. I think the way they handle UHC is very culturally digestable to America, and they managed to get it past their huge insurance and pharmaceutical companies, who now are in favor of it. It seems like a good place to start.

    The current US senate bill doesn't change enough to impress me. It's pretty vacuous.
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  10. #120
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If anything, that would just lower the Gini. I generally don't take the explanation "it would cost rich people a lot of money" as a particularly damning criticism.
    It would lower the Gini, sure. I don't think everybody considers lowering the Gini as a good thing. Otherwise, nobody would vote Republican
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