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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah. Well, the bright side is that at least my parents have a job... for now. Hopefully I can find one while that's still true.

    I guess we've got to stay optimistic, even though it's irrational. After all, the motivation to keep trying isn't going to come from dwelling on reality.



    My mother and I have been calling them up trying to talk them out of passing it, but the lines are busy.
    Yea, I've gotten the same result. I'm sure they have thousands of people clogging their lines. Thousands who are the only citizens paying attention and are moving to keep things in one piece for the rest of the population.

    I tend to be cynical, only because "cynical"is relative to peoples' subjective views on what "optimistic" is. People always want to believe the best in a situation because it's a natural coping mechanism. If I tend to be cynical, it's not because I like to be doom and gloom, it's because I prefer to take an objective view of the situation. I'd rather be a cynical and pessimistic realist than one of a multitude of blind optimists. But for most people, I think I'm speaking a foreign language.

    One doesn't have to be optimistic, one need only take action in the direction they believe is correct. Then you can be optimistic in knowing your efforts will yield results in whatever path you choose (and have the power to effect).

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    and...
    Uh huh, and a million other research institutions say it'll be a fantastic boon.

    The fact is economics is still a very incomplete "science" at best--even leading authorities disagree dramatically on many major points, so there's clearly a degree of subjectivity here.

    You can find whatever prediction you want if you look through all the media out there. That's the point.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Did the OP fail to mention that the poor will actually save, on average, $40 on their bills? Of course.

    Fighting global warming is a necessity, and if you don't realize that, then I can't help you there.. If Repubs are so concerned about big government and spending, why don't they bitch about the 2/3rds of the NATIONAL BUDGET going directly into the Defense Department? Maybe then we could afford more programs without the taxes they bitch about so much.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Did the OP fail to mention that the poor will actually save, on average, $40 on their bills? Of course.
    Corroborate this claim with some evidence.


    Fighting global warming is a necessity, and if you don't realize that, then I can't help you there.. If Repubs are so concerned about big government and spending, why don't they bitch about the 2/3rds of the NATIONAL BUDGET going directly into the Defense Department? Maybe then we could afford more programs without the taxes they bitch about so much.
    If we had a different sort of foreign policy where we aren't spending so much to keep our troops stationed in multiple countries in almost "empire" fashion, then I might be inclined to agree. You should be thankful, however, that we do spend money for defense as those nations which have nuclear weapons and explicitly state that they wish to destroy the US are unlikely to do so because of our military might. So think about that as you sleep comfortably in your bed, taking for granted the sorts of sacrifices people make everyday to keep a nation (of many worthless) safe and at peace in their pajamas. Defense spending is necessary, though I'm sure there is SOME waste that could be cut. Spending on military excursions abroad is something that wont go away anytime soon because of how this nation has operated with its foreign policy since at least WW2, which is actually funny, because both presidents of WW1 and WW2 were from the LEFT, and at least one arguably wished to enter the war. War and military spending has little direct correlation to one party. This is an idea espoused by the political class to confuse the dimwitted population about the parties. Therefore, you should perhaps consider ingesting more caffeine, because you've obviously been sleeping too much to realize what's going on...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post

    Fighting global warming is a necessity, and if you don't realize that, then I can't help you there.. .
    Crap. I don't even know why I kept reading your post :/ .

  5. #25
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Corroborate this claim with some evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYTimes
    The bill would grant a majority of the permits free in the early years of the program, to keep costs low. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the average American household would pay an additional $175 a year in energy costs by 2020 as a result of the provision, while the poorest households would receive rebates that would lower their annual energy costs by $40.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/27/us...%20bill&st=cse

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    If we had a different sort of foreign policy where we aren't spending so much to keep our troops stationed in multiple countries in almost "empire" fashion, then I might be inclined to agree. You should be thankful, however, that we do spend money for defense as those nations which have nuclear weapons and explicitly state that they wish to destroy the US are unlikely to do so because of our military might. So think about that as you sleep comfortably in your bed, taking for granted the sorts of sacrifices people make everyday to keep a nation (of many worthless) safe and at peace in their pajamas. Defense spending is necessary, though I'm sure there is SOME waste that could be cut. Spending on military excursions abroad is something that wont go away anytime soon because of how this nation has operated with its foreign policy since at least WW2, which is actually funny, because both presidents of WW1 and WW2 were from the LEFT, and at least one arguably wished to enter the war. War and military spending has little direct correlation to one party. This is an idea espoused by the political class to confuse the dimwitted population about the parties. Therefore, you should perhaps consider ingesting more caffeine, because you've obviously been sleeping too much to realize what's going on...
    Yes, your scare tactics will really make me agree to fork over 12% of my income check to buy tanks and faulty intelligence. I mean, look at all those WMDs we've captured from rogue groups already! You do realize that terrorist attacks and anti-American sentiments have increased since the US decided to continually engage its interests in foreign countries using military force, right? In case you've been sleeping too much, AMERICA IS A ROGUE STATE, and if you think that other countries wish to "destroy" the USA for reasons other than its pathetic foreign policy that uses force instead of diplomacy, you're wrong. Stop using straw men arguments by invoking the names of the first two World Wars, which have little to do with the current international relational situation.

    Also, I never said that Republicans soley spend on the military, or have interest in it. Instead, I was focusing on the fact that Republicans are historically anti-"big government" and spending (taxes), and yet the Mil. Ind. Complex is the largest vortex of tax dollars, so shouldn't they be concerned about that the most?


    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Crap. I don't even know why I kept reading your post :/ .
    Well then, you must be very against anything rooted in empirical scientific study.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

  6. #26
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    Which again are based on CBO estimates which have been projected, as in the OP, to be an extremely minimized outlook of the cost to the average household over the coming years for reasons outlined in the OP, so read again sleepy head.

    Anyway, we're done.

  7. #27
    Senior Member snegledmaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Did the OP fail to mention that the poor will actually save, on average, $40 on their bills?
    Regarding this, is this really relevant? If the average household will be paying double. I mean, helping the poor should not be a priority. Because the poor should be a minority. The majority should be a priority and they should be well off. When their well being is assured should the focus be on the minority groups. Also the way I see it in order for this legislation to be helping people they should be poor. Which is not what is desired at all. And also it will help make people poor. Which is also something that is not desired at all. The price of the ideals represented through this legislation seems too high to me. Surely there is a better way of accomplishing the same thing.

    Fighting global warming is a necessity
    Why?

    Personally I was under the impression that a rise in temperatures and CO2 levels will increase the area on which plants can grow and will increase the health and size of plant life. That is, global warming will result in more plants, more food, more life. As has been the case for every global warming period in earth's history. (To the best of my knowledge. Which is not exact, but an impression I got)

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Fighting global warming is a necessity, and if you don't realize that, then I can't help you there.. If Repubs are so concerned about big government and spending, why don't they bitch about the 2/3rds of the NATIONAL BUDGET going directly into the Defense Department? Maybe then we could afford more programs without the taxes they bitch about so much.
    "Fighting" global warming, assuming the (currently declining but still existant) preponderance of evidence is accurate, is necessary, just like "fighting" terrorism is necessary; and like terrorism, the war against global warming can be "fought" counter-productively and irrationally. Effectively subsidizing the productive economy of China, India, and other countries which produce more pollution in proportion to economic production than the United States or Western Europe seems more than a little counter-productive to me. Drastically hindering the productive capacity of the global economy for what would be only marginal gains if industries were somehow chained to their current locations, thereby limiting future resources which could be dedicated to researching economically efficient and non-intrusive means of substantially reducing green-house gases, is likewise counter-productive.

    As for the rest, to what extent does the military budget (a public good that is limited in its domestic impact) hinder economic growth or (far more importantly) affect the daily lives of ordinary citizens, either through direct regulation or indirectely by simply increasing the power and reach of the federal government?
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 06-28-2009 at 04:30 PM. Reason: more to add

  9. #29
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Why?

    Personally I was under the impression that a rise in temperatures and CO2 levels will increase the area on which plants can grow and will increase the health and size of plant life. That is, global warming will result in more plants, more food, more life. As has been the case for every global warming period in earth's history. (To the best of my knowledge. Which is not exact, but an impression I got)
    In the short-term, its about the alleged effect on glacial run-off in mountains and the regularity of seasonal rainfall, combined with entrenched human settlement patterns. In the long-term, its about rising ocean levels (an alleged threat that has recently been drastically down-graded) and dying coral reefs (a real problem that is allegedly due in large part to global warming).

  10. #30
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    Stop it. The god damn planet isn't warming, it's cooling. Shit. It can't be called global warming when the f***ing planet is cooling, hence why they had a meeting in the whitehouse over a month ago to agree to stop calling it global warming and start calling it climate change because that's the only way they can keep hooking the idiots on this planet to the idea that we are somehow f***ing up the weather as opposed to f***ing up the collective brain of the population.

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