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  1. #101
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Regardless of what's morally and legally correct, there's no way you can stop music sharing. It's much more effective taking that into account and use it to your advantage.
    Actually, they CAN. They just haven't done it yet. That's what I'm afraid of. Why is no one else afraid of the infrastructure they might put in place that would completely regulate everything that was available on the Internet to fall within what was accepted inside a certain belief or legal system? It would have MUCH greater implications than just combating music sharing.

  2. #102
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Not necessarily representative, perhaps, but of the several professional musicians I know (taking professional to mean people who make all or most of their income from using their musical skills in some way) I'm not aware of anyone who earns the majority of their income from either legal downloads or commercial Cd sales. Given the tiny share of the royalties most artists recieve from commercial cd sales this isn't really surprising. I can't honestly see it making much difference except to the popular superstars, especially those who would rather earn their income from back catalogue sales than going out and performing regularly. Getting a place in the charts - which is dependent on sales, may also help new bands and artists to get established by virtue of the attention it brings them - but really, how many people over 12 years old care about the singles charts any more?

    There seems to be a pretty good income to be made from live performance, particularly if the artists are able to manage their own finances and thereby maximise their cut; and selling self-produced Cd's at performances and online is lucrative too, because the artist gets the whole value of the Cd, less production, storage and distribution cost. I asked one aquaintance why as a sucessful, in demand performer with a fanbase and many contacts inside the industry he did not show any interest in getting either himself *as a solo artist* or either of the bands he played in signed commercially. In response he simply explained what his bottom line was and how much more secure he was financially this way - particularly as a niche artist who wouldn't be likely to have massive mainstream sucess without radically changing what he did - which also happened to be what he enjoyed doing and had spent many years honing his skills for.

    I do suspect that if illegal downloads are impacting anyone in addittion to the record labels, they are mostly hurting large, established, more or less mainstream commercial acts - ie those who can most afford it. What you think of the ethics and legality are a separate issue; but in practical terms I doubt there are too many "struggling musicians" with talent who can't afford to put food into their mouths any more because of downloads.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Actually, they CAN. They just haven't done it yet. That's what I'm afraid of. Why is no one else afraid of the infrastructure they might put in place that would completely regulate everything that was available on the Internet to fall within what was accepted inside a certain belief or legal system? It would have MUCH greater implications than just combating music sharing.
    Practically possible? No. The only systems they've been able to devise so far, have numerous false positive issues (think about it, if it even has 1% false positives, it's a MASSIVE issue.), and creates slowdowns in excess of 30%. AND, they can all be evaded with adding a bit of encryption.

    Think. It's utterly impossible to stop file sharing. Stopping the protocol, is possible to an extent, but the combination of far too many ways to share files, encryption, and the use of the same protocols for legal use, makes this impossible.
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  4. #104
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Practically possible? No. The only systems they've been able to devise so far, have numerous false positive issues (think about it, if it even has 1% false positives, it's a MASSIVE issue.), and creates slowdowns in excess of 30%. AND, they can all be evaded with adding a bit of encryption.

    Think. It's utterly impossible to stop file sharing. Stopping the protocol, is possible to an extent, but the combination of far too many ways to share files, encryption, and the use of the same protocols for legal use, makes this impossible.
    Right. But they might still implement it even though it creates massive slowdowns (and this might be worked out eventually). And then outlaw the use of encryption, and add encryption detection to the protocol as well.

    What if they just outlaw the Internet altogether and create a new infrastucture that's controlled by the Government, and can only be used by specialized, provided devices (making all current computers illegal, obsolete. and useless)?


    Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but I don't know how reasonable these people or the government are willing to be about enforcing their demands.

  5. #105
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Right. But they might still implement it even though it creates massive slowdowns (and this might be worked out eventually). And then outlaw the use of encryption, and add encryption detection to the protocol as well.
    Luckily for us, encryption happens to be necessary. For some basic examples: Online banking, or any type of account. Sending any sort of important data.

    What if they just outlaw the Internet altogether and create a new infrastucture that's controlled by the Government, and can only be used by specialized, provided devices (making all current computers illegal, obsolete. and useless)?
    Big business and tech companies will overrule the copyright lobby on that one. Money talks so to speak, and I think the whole of the Nasdaq and pretty much all businesses are > than the Music/Movie Industry, same goes for the encryption part above.


    Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but I don't know how reasonable these people or the government are willing to be about enforcing their demands.
    They've backed down every time the public has revolted for the most part. (See: Comcast bittorrent throttling, Metered bandwidth, Broadcast flag.) A few things have slipped by, but although there's a constant threat, as of late, the govt hasn't made many stupid decisions. (Now, if they'd just reverse their previous stupid one, the DMCA).
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  6. #106
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I pay a monthly fee for a music service. I don't mind paying for my music, however I am guilty of getting maybe 3 songs per year for free through file sharing but that's only when I can't find the song I'm looking for on any pay service. I hope I don't get arrested for confessing this.
    Yeah, I mean, I think that's a morally acceptable stance, too--you're paying for the service you get, and then there are a few circumstances where you just WILL get some music given to you or have to track it down if it's not available. Some things aren't readily available. And of course, people have been making "mix tapes" since forever. I think the major concern is that there is a large segment of the population that ONLY get their music through download--that haven't paid a cent for music in years.
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  7. #107
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I think the major concern is that there is a large segment of the population that ONLY get their music through download--that haven't paid a cent for music in years.
    Yeah, I see what you mean. I've been paying every month for 4 years straight, even when I don't use it. I have to admit that sometimes I wonder what the artists are thinking when they only let you hear 30 seconds of their song on the pay services (aka Zune, rhapsody, etc). I can't help but think that it's not so much about them making money but moreso that they want to protect their ego. Basically they feel that they are above those artists who share their music for free or with a pay service in order to make money. They feel that the public will pay for their music if they really want it. You have to have a lot of confidence to do that.

  8. #108
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I can't help but think that it's not so much about them making money but moreso that they want to protect their ego. Basically they feel that they are above those artists who share their music for free...
    I totally agree. This is one of the (several) reasons why I'm going to avoid listening to or supporting commercial music from now on. I'm a hypocrite if I listen to them even though I disagree with what they do, so I won't anymore (except when it gets shoved in my face by commercials or the radio). The other reason is that music isn't actually useful, I don't really get much out of it under the license they're selling it under, and I want to push for a movement to show commercial artists that we don't need them or their music.

    This seems to have limited me mostly to classical music and national anthems, but I can make do with that. Sophisticated people prefer classical music, anyway. You might say I'm just trying to purge myself of unsophisticated behavior.

  9. #109
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    ^ Well I'm really not against paying artists to enjoy their art, and I do enjoy it. It's greed that I don't like.

  10. #110
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    ^ Well I'm really not against paying artists to enjoy their art, and I do enjoy it. It's greed that I don't like.
    Of course I wouldn't be against paying them... except that I don't like the license I'm asked to accept when I do. It's more that I feel commercial artists need to be taught a lesson about greed. Most of them are too drunk on fame and money to have a clear image of themselves. If people stop downloading and buying their music in repulsion to their behavior, perhaps they'll think twice about how important they really are in the grand scheme of things. They need to realize that people can live just fine without them or their music, and they really have no right to demand and whine so much.

    Most artists, authors, and creative types have an inflated sense of self-importance, honestly. They're all so, "Oh, look at me, I'm so special and valuable because I create new and unique works of art. You should respect me for that," and they need to be shown their place. The fact of the matter is, people don't need new works of art. People can subsist just fine on old works of art and more useful things. Artists don't appreciate how tentative their position in the world really is, or that it's THEY who need the rest of the world, and not the other way around.

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