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  1. #61
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Suppose we substitute your son for the cop. Suppose the "old gal" pulls a knife and stabs him. Suppose she push him in front of a car. You might have a dead son, courtesy of a old woman with an attitude of entitlement.
    Okay. Let's do that. Let's suppose the old gal pulls a knife.

    The situation would have escalated and the levels of force required would change. Using a tazer against a knife-wielding granny would be a real possibility. Proportionality, after all.

    But as that is an entirely hypothetical construct of your own making and irrelevant to what actually happened, I can only assume you are taking the piss?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    He probably wouldn't have to tackle her, she's not exactly a star wide receiver. And using your hands instead of a taser gun has a better chance of not killing the elderly.
    She would be doing the talk show circuits with bruises and you would scream brutality.

    The dangers of tasers should be a different discussion. People die from all sorts of tactics aimed at subduing them.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Okay. Let's do that. Let's suppose the old gal pulls a knife.

    The situation would have escalated and the levels of force required would change. Using a tazer against a knife-wielding granny would be a real possibility. Proportionality, after all.
    If situations always unfold in a nice, predictable fashion, no cops would ever get hurt or killed.

    But as that is an entirely hypothetical construct of your own making and irrelevant to what actually happened, I can only assume you are taking the piss?
    It's easy to talk about what should have been done after the fact. While it's happening, there's no way to know whether you're dealing with an "old gal" or an enraged homicidal witch.

  4. #64
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Sounds like someone had a bad relationship with their great-grandmother.

  5. #65
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sounds like someone had a bad relationship with their great-grandmother.
    I reckon there's something strangely Freudian going on here.

    I'd say he'd been brought up by gypsies and was made to arm wrestle old ladies. And he always lost.

  6. #66
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Seems pretty obvious she was an old woman, tho. The cop knew who he was dealing with.

    As for "what if she had a knife/gun/was a ninja" stuff - why not just tase everyone first?

    I mean, this is obviously coming down to personal takes on what is appropriate in a given situation but for me, it is the JOB of a police officer to maintain control of the situation AND HIMSELF. An old woman mouthing off doesn't need to be tased or "tackled" - that cop was huge, and I don't believe he couldnt have restrained her using his hands. The tasing definitely seemed at least partially motivated by anger on the cop's side, and he should have had more emotional control over himself, imo.

    It's interesting that this happened in the US. I know here in Canada and in the UK, police are trained from the start to approach some situations in a cool and non-threatening manner. Policing in the US seems to be much more aggression-based, in almost every situation. It's a different policy, and an interesting one. Might be a good other discussion/thread, as I think it extends to the military as well (the differences in the approaches of US and UK forces to civilians in Iraq were marked).

    Oh and if my son was a cop? And we both wanted him to avoid dangerous situations? I'd advise him not to become a cop.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sounds like someone had a bad relationship with their great-grandmother.
    Sounds like someone had a bad relationship with their local police department.

  8. #68
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    I reckon there's something strangely Freudian going on here.

    I'd say he'd been brought up by gypsies and was made to arm wrestle old ladies. And he always lost.
    Or maybe he went to Catholic school.

  9. #69
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I don't think you understand, but once you grab and restrain a great-grandmother, the knife they are surely hiding taped to their ankle will do little good.
    I don't think YOU understand, once you put your hands on someone else (particularly a female) those handcuffs had better go on FAST or a simple traffic ticket could turn into a whole mess of charges for both the suspect AND the officer.

    You say yourself she is old, what if she had fallen down when he grabbed her? She was obviously resisting so what if he accidentally twisted her arm while trying to subdue her? What if when she fell the knife she was carrying on her ankle came loose and stabbed into her foot?

    In the police world, you go by "what if's" and use your own discretion to evaluate the situation to find the safest way to neutralize it. The taser was safest way to go, physically and legally.

    If this was happening in a different environment, where she was less prone to danger, the officer may have tried more physical force before tasering her. But on the side of a highway it's just too dangerous for any altercation.

    The officer DID try to grab her and handcuff her, he pushed her around a bit to get the cuffs on but she resisted and turned away. If you take it any further than that, you really do risk hurting the person or yourself and exposing yourself to a potential lawsuit.

    Look, if the lady was frail and weak because of her age, then obviously it would not have been a good idea. But alas, she fought back. And she is unscathed, so I don't see what the big deal is. Should people 70 and above be exempt from the law? I'm sure some idiot democrat is now going to make a law where it is illegal to taser someone over 70.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    As for "what if she had a knife/gun/was a ninja" stuff - why not just tase everyone first?
    They probably do tase everyone who is out of control. Or put them in a Jujitsu hold. Neither is pleasant.
    An old woman mouthing off doesn't need to be tased or "tackled" - that cop was huge, and I don't believe he couldnt have restrained her using his hands.
    She was doing a lot more than just mouthing off. She was behaving in an uncontrolled manner that could have escalated and put herself and others in danger. The cop had a duty to control the situation.

    Using his hands would have looked no better. All the videos I've seen of cops handcuffing an uncooperative individual, even a female, involved a substantial amount of physical force. Keep in mind that most cops believe the taser is safe. He probably believe he took the gentler route.

    While the situation was unfolding, there is no way for the cop to know how much risk was actually involved. He has to assume the worst. Cops has died because situations escalated unexpectedly.

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