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View Poll Results: How well is Obama doing?

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26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Extremely well. We are undoubtedly moving in the right direction?

    3 11.54%
  • Fairly well. There's still a long way to go.

    9 34.62%
  • Not well at all. His plans are hurting more than helping.

    10 38.46%
  • Not sure.

    4 15.38%
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  1. #11
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Err... no. It seems obvious that the economy wouldn't recover without government subsidies. Do you think otherwise?
    The economy has crashed and recovered in the past without government subsidies. If there were better market-based discipline (i.e., appallingly poor business decisions were punished by companies ceasing to exist or losing tons of money), then businesspeople might be a little more careful. Where are the incentives to adapt if you know that the government will bail you out if you screw up big time?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The economy has crashed and recovered in the past without government subsidies. If there were better market-based discipline (i.e., appallingly poor business decisions were punished by companies ceasing to exist or losing tons of money), then businesspeople might be a little more careful. Where are the incentives to adapt if you know that the government will bail you out if you screw up big time?
    Actually, no. The reason why the banks were regulated in the first place, many a decade ago, is because true laissez-faire capitalism proved to be extremely unstable. We would have never recovered from the depression as quickly as we did without the new deal.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually, no. The reason why the banks were regulated in the first place, many a decade ago, is because true laissez-faire capitalism proved to be extremely unstable. We would have never recovered from the depression as quickly as we did without the new deal.

    Actually, yes. We had several recessions and crises as severe (but not as widespread, given the growth since) as the current one in our history before the Great Depression. Also, the New Deal most likely had no effect or prolonged the Great Depression. Things were as bad in 1937 after FDR's first term as it was when he took over in 1933. Even WWII didn't bring us back completely. It took until the explosion of consumer spending and relative peace after the war. Look at some of this new research:

    FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, yes. We had several recessions and crises as severe (but not as widespread, given the growth since) as the current one in our history before the Great Depression. Also, the New Deal most likely had no effect or prolonged the Great Depression. Things were as bad in 1937 after FDR's first term as it was when he took over in 1933. Even WWII didn't bring us back completely. It took until the explosion of consumer spending and relative peace after the war. Look at some of this new research:

    FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom
    The boom in consumer spending during the 1950's was supported strongly by the fact that soldiers received the GI Bill and government housing after WWII. The government actually played a strong role in rebuilding the economy at that point, it wasn't just consumer spending.

  5. #15
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    I've also read this Austrian economic argument that the government artificially inflates prices, and I admit it's extremely seductive. However, these theories cannot be proven with real numbers. The day that Austrian economic theory is proven with real numbers, I will buy it whole heartedly. However, the closest thing I've observed to it is the New Zealand "experiment", which was a disaster not a success.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The boom in consumer spending during the 1950's was supported strongly by the fact that soldiers received the GI Bill and government housing after WWII. The government actually played a strong role in rebuilding the economy at that point, it wasn't just consumer spending.

    No, it was mainly consumer spending. The GI Bill helped, but the government hurt, too. African-American veterans got herded into poorer areas than their white counterparts. The resulting lower property value and lack of economic opportunity gave rise to many of our ghettos in the past 60 years.

    Did you even read the article? I am sorry, but you sound like you're quoting out of the most simplistic grade-school textbook. The New Deal really set the country back in some serious ways, and this isn't some brand new theory.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, it was mainly consumer spending. The GI Bill helped, but the government hurt, too. African-American veterans got herded into poorer areas than their white counterparts. The resulting lower property value and lack of economic opportunity gave rise to many of our ghettos in the past 60 years.

    Did you even read the article? I am sorry, but you sound like you're quoting out of the most simplistic grade-school textbook. The New Deal really set the country back in some serious ways, and this isn't some brand new theory.
    Yes, I read the article and I've read these types of articles before: it's Austrian economic theory, and I responded in kind.

    There was no reason for you to suddenly resort to ad hominem attacks. This conversation is over.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I've also read this Austrian economic argument that the government artificially inflates prices, and I admit it's extremely seductive. However, these theories cannot be proven with real numbers. The day that Austrian economic theory is proven with real numbers, I will buy it whole heartedly. However, the closest thing I've observed to it is the New Zealand "experiment", which was a disaster not a success.
    I'm not an Austrian, but they had some excellent points (Menger, the first Austrian, popularized marginal utility). I don't get your characterization of New Zealand as a "disaster," though. "Rogernomics" was actually a qualified success in New Zealand, which had been one of the most planned economies in the free world.

    The Perils of Success: Revisiting New Zealand's decade of privatization - Reason Magazine
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yes, I read the article and I've read these types of articles before: it's Austrian economic theory, and I responded in kind.
    It's Austrian economic theory? Are you serious? Cole and Ohanian are neoclassical economists, and that's why they were so surprised by their findings. Lee Ohanian is an adviser to the Minneapolis Fed; does that sound like something that a hardcore Austrian economist would do?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I'm not an Austrian, but they had some excellent points (Menger, the first Austrian, popularized marginal utility). I don't get your characterization of New Zealand as a "disaster," though. "Rogernomics" was actually a qualified success in New Zealand, which had been one of the most planned economies in the free world.

    The Perils of Success: Revisiting New Zealand's decade of privatization - Reason Magazine
    You must be an Austrian theorist, because you're quoting from Reason magazine, a notoriously Libertarian, Austrian economic theorist magazine.

    Here's a different take on the New Zealand "success": New Zealand "experiment" a colossal failure - Jane Kelsey

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