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Thread: On democracy

  1. #21
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Some good responses, some are clearly of low standard thinking

    I never ever said democracy was worth striving for, I implied that we - the people - do not rule at all. My personal opinion is that Oligarchy is the best alternative. BUT, only people who are active members of a party should be able to vote, though. There should be expectations on the voters, too... The representatives and political parties should also be unable to receive any form of donations or use private money for their campaigns in order to moderate or completely remove the influence from corporations.

    I don't know about you guys, but I have recently begun to develop a fascination for the Chinese model of Government.
    People have what they need and they are striving in the same direction, but there is no hypocrisy about who is in charge.
    Can you deny that their standard of living is skyrocketing?
    Can you deny that they are horribly successful?
    Can't you see that they will be the dominating superpower within a few decades?
    I think it says a lot, even though I have my doubts about some of the things that they are doing... There is not an illusion of freedom, but it is more stable unless someone starts spreading "bad" (liberal, socialist etc) ideas during a time of crisis/starvation etc
    .

    Democracy means something along the line Rule of the people or Popular Government. The very term is wrong and should be changed to oligarchy, for in truth most "democracies" are governed by a small elite supported by or directly involved with various economic, religious etc interests. Election campaigns require money, so the guy with the most money can hire the best people to do a shitload of awesome campaign work... The best campaign (and I must admit, the most charismatic and clever staff) wins. But largely, that depends on money more than the actual candidate, especially in the United States. Not saying money is everything. I am actually surprised that Obama got elected. Also I am not saying it is not present everywhere to some extent. No country is "perfect", or even close to being so.

    As some of you may know, the first rule of any politician is that people are sheep. They are easy to lead for anyone willing and able to manipulate them. The people does not and can not govern, they are only lead to believe that they are. Speaking of people being easy to lead, just look how easily I won the "mod nomination" thing by being nice to a bunch of people. Gotta admit I enjoyed it quite a bit But then again, I am a natural politician.


    Definition of oligarchy, so that some of you do not misinterpret what the hell I am saying:

    "An Oligarchy (Greek ?????????, Oligarkhía) is a form of government where power effectively rests with a small elite segment of society distinguished by royal, wealth, family, military or religious hegemony." - Oligarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #22
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    YLJ,


    Have you ever tried to write to your deputies, or do you consider this to be worthless?

    Have you ever tried to test your democracy, or are you just spreading demagogy just for the sake of it?

    It's so cliché.

    ---

    I would not say that people are sheeps, I'd rather say that most of them are rather passive than active, and haven't the will to make a difference because it means making compromises.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #23
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Is the Chinese one party rule responsible for their economic growth or their economic policies? Capitalism, a large source of CHEAP labor, flooding the American market with cheap exports and currency thus contributing to the crisis here -- those are the more likely reasons for China's economic success than their one party state.

    From where do you get the idea that people have what they need in China - far from it. There is a growing middle class in the urban areas but there are huge disparities between those who have access to resources and those who do not.

    You can, of course, still admire their one party state. That's your prerogative and indicative of your despotic inclinations.

  4. #24
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Deputies? What are you talking about?

    Where would I test my oligarchy? I would need a bloody army to establish one in the first place I am just trying to smack people in the head to wake them up from their sweet daydreaming. I don't like hypocrisy, so I am attacking the word "democracy" and what people think it means in practice.
    I am looking for arguments that says otherwise, but most of what I am getting is "Dude, you are toooootally wrong, like... MY DADDY/MOMMY/SCHOOL TEACHER SAYS YOU ARE".

    What you're saying is just one long euphemism. In practice, they are still led by their nose-rings rather than being in charge. Not that sheep have nose-rings...



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    YLJ,


    Have you ever tried to write to your deputies, or do you consider this to be worthless?

    Have you ever tried to test your democracy, or are you just spreading demagogy just for the sake of it?

    It's so cliché.

    ---

    I would not say that people are sheeps, I'd rather say that most of them are rather passive than active, and haven't the will to make a difference because it means making compromises.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #25
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    That's what a say. You despise democracy because basically, it means making compromises you are unable to accept. So you prefer laziness, fatalism and find demagogy more appealing. So typical.

    It's so easy to behave this way on internet.

    It's not so easy to make a real difference in the real world.

    You should ask yourself who is the sheep: tell me!

    Beeeh! Beeeh!

    ---

    When required, I managed to find appointments with my deputies, my mayors, and even had interviews with my ministers. It's not easy, it's not simple, but everybody can do it if you represent a cause greater than yourself.
    It can be long and disappointing, but those who try nothing, gain nothing.

    So I ask again: have you even tried?
    I'm not sure if you have really understood what a modern democracy is, and especially how decisions are taken.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  6. #26
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I am amused Are you defending your point with personal insults?

    It is you who do not understand what I am saying. You are misinterpreting what I am saying, either deliberately or because of lacking language skills.
    I do not despise the system that is used, I am saying that it is wrong to call it democracy, since the people do not govern. However, I think the oligarchy of today can be improved upon.

    To your "have you tried?" question, I answer yes. I am a member of a political party, and I am active. My mother is a high official within social services, my father used to be on the city council and my brother is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. To not be political has never been an alternative for me, being from a politically active family. I just do my demagogue-thing on the internet as an extra bonus.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #27
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Blah...............bla bla blahhhhhh?

  8. #28
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Interesting... two types I am aware of:

    1. The Persian Gulf. Taxes are not necessary so neither is representation. Without representation, civil liberties don't need to be guaranteed.

    2. Britain before democratization. Taxation necessary thus a demand for representation and finally better protection of civil liberties. Nor a constitutional monarchy.

    What makes a monarchy an attractive place to live, I am curious.
    1. A sense of commonality amount civilians instead of separation based on ideology

    2. A state to serve which is self serving. Personally the idea of a state that serves me robs me of any nationalist urge. I feel that I would be far more motivated to succeed if I served a state which served itself.

    3. I would rather risk the advent of a mad king than live in the definite madness of the people.
    wails from the crypt.

  9. #29
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post

    To your "have you tried?" question, I answer yes. I am a member of a political party, and I am active. My mother is a high official within social services, my father used to be on the city council and my brother is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. To not be political has never been an alternative for me, being from a politically active family. I just do my demagogue-thing on the internet as an extra bonus.
    So what did you learn?

    Is your political party an extreme one? Does this party accept democracy (it's not the case of the Communist Party). Could you accept compromises?

    I'm curious. Because the ability to make compromises is what democracy is all about.

    For instance: if you are a sympathizer of a lost, anti-democratic cause, no wonder that according to you, you perceive our current regime as an oligarchy because you have never been allowed to participate in important decisions.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #30
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Why are you making this into some kind of personal pie-throwing thing?

    I learned early on that I can, have and will influence things. Again, you have probably not understood or read half of what I have written. Please, try to re-read and look up difficult words/definitions.

    What I am saying is that there is no such thing as democracy. All decisions are made by a political, religious and corporate elite. I belong to the small band of people who are active, so I have a say.

    My party is a "democratic" one. I agree with most of the members on a lot of issues.
    My opinion is that - again - there is no such thing as "democracy". I believe that the current system is good, but can be improved upon drastically. Now I am repeating myself.

    Have I made myself clear? Feels like arguing with:


    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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