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  1. #1
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Default The end of freedom of speech?

    Gates of Vienna: Arrests in Brussels

    I know two women and a few men who went to this, inspite of the ban, had I been able I would have gone too as this is truly an issue to me, and I feel that freedom to talk about it, to publicise the issue. to hear our voices is our right, or am I mistaking what freedom of speech nowadays means?

    One of the women was in her 60's trying to dodge the police lol.

    Had there been no ban they estimate that at least 20,000 people would have protested. This is a serious issue that people really need to wake up to, banning peoples voices isn't the answer.

    Thoughts?
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  2. #2
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I really think that's potentially dangerous. I'm surprised at how similarly (in a vague sense) our cultures respond to a threat of the idea of freedom of speech/democracy. I suppose many of our ideals really do have European roots.

    Anyway, I'm definitely on the side that would defend their right to assemble, although I think a balance needs to be reached, lest they should persecute the Islamic people as a whole. I think that's what the authorities were afraid of, but I believe they overreacted, and created a worse oppression by arresting the protesters. Unless they had been violent or something, I consider that action unjustified.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    As far as I have read none of the protestors were violent, the police were more forceful, because the mayor had banned this protest before, and people still turned up.

    I agree that a balance needs to be reached, but in England the police stood by during the cartoon protest inspite of reading baners that said things like "fantastic four" (who did the train bombings) and banners talking about beheading people.

    The point of this protest was proved by the decision to ban it first, and then break it up the way they did on the day, they have proven that the creeping islamisation is beginning, where a muslim is free to protest and march against what he sees as injustice and actually get action, whereas those against it are being silenced forcefully. The protest was against these exact things.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  4. #4
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    As far as I have read none of the protestors were violent, the police were more forceful, because the mayor had banned this protest before, and people still turned up.

    I agree that a balance needs to be reached, but in England the police stood by during the cartoon protest inspite of reading baners that said things like "fantastic four" (who did the train bombings) and banners talking about beheading people.

    The point of this protest was proved by the decision to ban it first, and then break it up the way they did on the day, they have proven that the creeping islamisation is beginning, where a muslim is free to protest and march against what he sees as injustice and actually get action, whereas those against it are being silenced forcefully. The protest was against these exact things.
    Sounds a lot like what political correctness is doing in the United States. They impose toleration of Islam and similar minority groups down our throats, and then cry foul if we express our own views. We're being taught to tear ourselves apart like the Romans did, with bread and circuses to distract us. On the other hand, if the majority view was given too much power, the minorities would suffer. I just wish there was an easy solution, and that people had some kind of sense to know what was really right and wrong without just being taught it somewhere, because that kind of teaching is so vulnerable to corruption and misinterpretation. It's so important for people to listen to their hearts, which they really don't do often enough. It can be hard even for me, especially when my Ni goes on a long tangent of destroying meaning. Things like this bring my Feelings back to the forefront, however.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Sounds a lot like what political correctness is doing in the United States. They impose toleration of Islam and similar minority groups down our throats, and then cry foul if we express our own views. We're being taught to tear ourselves apart like the Romans did, with bread and circuses to distract us. On the other hand, if the majority view was given too much power, the minorities would suffer. I just wish there was an easy solution, and that people had some kind of sense to know what was really right and wrong without just being taught it somewhere, because that kind of teaching is so vulnerable to corruption and misinterpretation. It's so important for people to listen to their hearts, which they really don't do often enough. It can be hard even for me, especially when my Ni goes on a long tangent of destroying meaning. Things like this bring my Feelings back to the forefront, however.
    My sentiments exactly, I find it saddening seeing people doing bad things because they get told to, rather than looking within themselves for a stand of their own.

    The stop the Islamisation of Europe is a voice that does need to be heard, even for the sake of moderate muslims who themselves have to be told what to do, and even if they disagree with the political movement of islam, they can not disagree completely, nor verbally.

    The avergae muslim in the west wasn;t really offended that banks offered kids little piggy banks, or that they had a play called the three little pigs, yet they were all banned because the political side of islam complained, and we listened.

    The average muslim didnt care that the toilets in jail aligned wrongly never said they wanted the toilets rebuilt so that they didn;t face mecca, yet the political side complained and we listened and rebuilt the toilets.

    The average muslim didn;t ask for all western schools in London to stop serving pork even to non muslims kids, yet the political side compained and we listened and changed the policy.

    We listened when they said that doctors and nurses on the NHS should not eat infront of muslims colleagues during ramadan this year for fear of offending.

    We shouldn;t be listening though, we shouldn;t have to make such changes, aren;t they themselves supposed to make the necessary changes to integrate into the host country?

    Thats what this protest was about, but like you said, Pc'ism is on the march within politics, and among the general sheep like masses.

    Regardless they haven;t dampened the spirit of the protestors, a global one is on the cards, and I will attend if it happens.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #6
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Sahara,

    You might like this and this. In particular check out the articles posted by Hugh Fitzgerald, which though a little hyperbole at times, are very interesting and informative.

    Though beware of confirmation bias. It is always easy to go out and find confirmation for whatever we believe, but also the intellectual equivalent of cowardice. The braver option is to seek out refutations, since learning always consists of learning how we were mistaken.

    Regards,
    Lee
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #7
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    As far as I have read none of the protestors were violent, the police were more forceful, because the mayor had banned this protest before, and people still turned up.

    I agree that a balance needs to be reached, but in England the police stood by during the cartoon protest inspite of reading baners that said things like "fantastic four" (who did the train bombings) and banners talking about beheading people.

    The point of this protest was proved by the decision to ban it first, and then break it up the way they did on the day, they have proven that the creeping islamisation is beginning, where a muslim is free to protest and march against what he sees as injustice and actually get action, whereas those against it are being silenced forcefully. The protest was against these exact things.
    Is there a middle path between a confrontation and a tolerance?

    A pacifist slogan.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    The stop the Islamisation of Europe is a voice that does need to be heard, even for the sake of moderate muslims who themselves have to be told what to do, and even if they disagree with the political movement of islam, they can not disagree completely, nor verbally.

    The avergae muslim in the west wasn;t really offended that banks offered kids little piggy banks, or that they had a play called the three little pigs, yet they were all banned because the political side of islam complained, and we listened.

    The average muslim didnt care that the toilets in jail aligned wrongly never said they wanted the toilets rebuilt so that they didn;t face mecca, yet the political side complained and we listened and rebuilt the toilets.

    The average muslim didn;t ask for all western schools in London to stop serving pork even to non muslims kids, yet the political side compained and we listened and changed the policy.

    We listened when they said that doctors and nurses on the NHS should not eat infront of muslims colleagues during ramadan this year for fear of offending.

    We shouldn;t be listening though, we shouldn;t have to make such changes, aren;t they themselves supposed to make the necessary changes to integrate into the host country?

    Thats what this protest was about, but like you said, Pc'ism is on the march within politics, and among the general sheep like masses.
    I had no idea that things were going this way in Europe. I'd heard of the bans in Britain and France on muslim women wearing their traditional clothing, and I was kind of upset about that. I still don't get why that should be. Seems to me that it would cause more intolerance on one side and radicalization on the other. But even if muslims are given some concessions, they do need to integrate into the society they enter.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Sounds a lot like what political correctness is doing in the United States. They impose toleration of Islam and similar minority groups down our throats, and then cry foul if we express our own views... On the other hand, if the majority view was given too much power, the minorities would suffer. I just wish there was an easy solution, and that people had some kind of sense to know what was really right and wrong without just being taught it somewhere, because that kind of teaching is so vulnerable to corruption and misinterpretation. It's so important for people to listen to their hearts, which they really don't do often enough. It can be hard even for me, especially when my Ni goes on a long tangent of destroying meaning. Things like this bring my Feelings back to the forefront, however.
    I believe that you have a total right to express yourself, even if I am a "minority". I'm not sure how things are being forced down your throat, though. Do you mean, like, gay marriage?
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    I had no idea that things were going this way in Europe. I'd heard of the bans in Britain and France on muslim women wearing their traditional clothing, and I was kind of upset about that. I still don't get why that should be. Seems to me that it would cause more intolerance on one side and radicalization on the other. But even if muslims are given some concessions, they do need to integrate into the society they enter.



    I believe that you have a total right to express yourself, even if I am a "minority". I'm not sure how things are being forced down your throat, though. Do you mean, like, gay marriage?
    Concessions to which muslims?

    Men or women?

    The ban on muslim women wearing traditional clothing is a concession to muslim women.

    To not ban the clothing is a concession to muslim men.

    There are muslims and muslims.
    They are not the same nation.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Concessions to which muslims?

    Men or women?

    The ban on muslim women wearing traditional clothing is a concession to muslim women.

    To not ban the clothing is a concession to muslim men.

    There are muslims and muslims.
    They are not the same nation.
    As for women being second-class citizens in muslim societies, I believe this to be true....

    And personally, I can't get along without my jeans- I think I would suffocate in those clothes, especially in the summer.....

    When i was a pre-teen, my father decided that we would all become moslems; and I got to cover my head and sit way in the back of a mosque for about a year, listening to the Imam drone on about obedience to God, and to the men in my life-

    but a great many of the women, all of whom had covered heads, totally ate that stuff up and many were glad to cover even their faces...The reasons they gave were:
    It's pleasing to God
    It protects them from overly sexual glances
    It's beautiful and feminine
    It proves them pious and obedient

    At the time I thought it was bullshit, and we were being treated like second class citizens- (which is part of the reason why I'm a Wiccan...) But the Black Moslem movement is different from conventional Islam I think; and every culture that embraced Islam brings its own traditions in in certain ways- That some women want to wear the Burka/hijab was an idea formed in childhood, and now that I think of it, never revisited; but I was under the impression that overly religious women, older women, and converts to Islam loved wearing that stuff. I may be totally wrong in that- maybe they were all brainwashed, which is what I felt I was being....

    Also, I've never talked about the subject to any woman who was born into Islam... They may feel entirely different than those who embrace it as an adult.

    I welcome other, more knowledgeable opinions-

    BTW, I followed those links Nocturne posted and was horrified....I have saved then to my bookmarks and will be reading up on stuff...

    Somewhere in here, all mixed up, are my feelings for Malcolm X....
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

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