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  1. #11
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Freedom of speech is still alive and well, just don't pick on muslims. If you feel you have to pick on them, confine your criticism to "religious extremism" and make sure all your illustrations are drawn only from Christian history. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Northern Ireland, child-molesting priests etc.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post

    Also, I've never talked about the subject to any woman who was born into Islam... They may feel entirely different than those who embrace it as an adult.
    I'm an ex muslim Crabapple, I was born and raised that way and only left it aged 28, believe me I hated being a second class citizen, I hated having no rights, no freedom, and no choices.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    Sahara,

    You might like this and this. In particular check out the articles posted by Hugh Fitzgerald, which though a little hyperbole at times, are very interesting and informative.

    Though beware of confirmation bias. It is always easy to go out and find confirmation for whatever we believe, but also the intellectual equivalent of cowardice. The braver option is to seek out refutations, since learning always consists of learning how we were mistaken.

    Regards,
    Lee
    Nocturne I visit those links on a regular basis, plus of course Faithfreedom.org, also the council of ex muslims for britain who are just starting up. I also visit the other side of the equation so I know about reading up on both sides, that's what led me to freedom in the first place.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  4. #14
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabapple View Post
    As for women being second-class citizens in muslim societies, I believe this to be true....

    And personally, I can't get along without my jeans- I think I would suffocate in those clothes, especially in the summer.....

    When i was a pre-teen, my father decided that we would all become moslems; and I got to cover my head and sit way in the back of a mosque for about a year, listening to the Imam drone on about obedience to God, and to the men in my life-

    but a great many of the women, all of whom had covered heads, totally ate that stuff up and many were glad to cover even their faces...The reasons they gave were:
    It's pleasing to God
    It protects them from overly sexual glances
    It's beautiful and feminine
    It proves them pious and obedient

    At the time I thought it was bullshit, and we were being treated like second class citizens- (which is part of the reason why I'm a Wiccan...) But the Black Moslem movement is different from conventional Islam I think; and every culture that embraced Islam brings its own traditions in in certain ways- That some women want to wear the Burka/hijab was an idea formed in childhood, and now that I think of it, never revisited; but I was under the impression that overly religious women, older women, and converts to Islam loved wearing that stuff. I may be totally wrong in that- maybe they were all brainwashed, which is what I felt I was being....

    Also, I've never talked about the subject to any woman who was born into Islam... They may feel entirely different than those who embrace it as an adult.

    I welcome other, more knowledgeable opinions-

    BTW, I followed those links Nocturne posted and was horrified....I have saved then to my bookmarks and will be reading up on stuff...

    Somewhere in here, all mixed up, are my feelings for Malcolm X....
    Yes. The black Moslem movement is quite a thing to itself.
    In part it is a defence strategy against racial repression.
    It has to do with the attitudes of the white Christian Churches in the South.

    Because of the links between the white supremacists and the white Churches there is a widespread feeling that Christianity is a form of oppression.

    In New York tolerance is on another level on both sides. I have become to think (from of what I have read) that tolerance is the least among the Moslem immigrant families in the West.
    This is due to the culture shock or a krock brought by the radically changed external conditions in the new country. The liberalism and the free way of life brings about a misguided counter strategy.

    The muslim husbands and fathers tend to think the only way to cope in new circumstances is to become increasingly more intolerant.
    The external situation being unchangable the counter measures are doomed to fail.

    I do not see such measures as honour killings are even remotely possible in native American Moslem families. They are born and raised in another cultural climate.

    I think you are quite right about the brainwashing, too. After all, it is the routine propaganda from birth to the grave.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Crabapple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I'm an ex muslim Crabapple, I was born and raised that way and only left it aged 28, believe me I hated being a second class citizen, I hated having no rights, no freedom, and no choices.
    i understand- i would hate it too...

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Yes. The black Moslem movement is quite a thing to itself.
    In part it is a defence strategy against racial repression.
    It has to do with the attitudes of the white Christian Churches in the South.

    Because of the links between the white supremacists and the white Churches there is a widespread feeling that Christianity is a form of oppression.

    In New York tolerance is on another level on both sides. I have become to think (from of what I have read) that tolerance is the least among the Moslem immigrant families in the West.
    This is due to the culture shock or a krock brought by the radically changed external conditions in the new country. The liberalism and the free way of life brings about a misguided counter strategy.

    The muslim husbands and fathers tend to think the only way to cope in new circumstances is to become increasingly more intolerant.
    The external situation being unchangable the counter measures are doomed to fail.

    I do not see such measures as honour killings are even remotely possible in native American Moslem families. They are born and raised in another cultural climate.

    I think you are quite right about the brainwashing, too. After all, it is the routine propaganda from birth to the grave.
    Looks like you know quite a bit about it....
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
    -- Unknown

  6. #16
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    As I see it, there are two things that the right to protest/freedom of speach does not allow:

    1) inciting violence
    2) abusing people for who they are, not what they say or do voluntarily.

    (2) maybe needs some clarification. I don't think that "gay marriage is wrong", or that "gay sex is wrong", but people should be allowed to say either of these if they want. If they do, I'll argue with them.
    However, someone who says "homosexuals are immoral" crosses a line (2), and "burn gays!" is clearly way beyond what people should be allowed to say (1 and 2). In practice, that can be a bit semantic, but I think it's a good place to start.

    There's also a particular problem when the target of a protest is a minority group and the protestors are from the minority. This is not because the protestors are necesarilly wrong, but because there is a large power imbalance. This can result in "knee-jerk" type reactions, including badly considered legislation, or the victimisation of individuals from the target group. On the other hand, there is a risk that people are too aware of this problem, and suppress legitimate viewpoints for fear of causing offence, so it is always a delicate balance to strike. This is the problem of the "liberal PC brigade".

    In this case, they were attacking a religion - which is something people adopt voluntarily - so they should have been allowed to protest. However, this is a seperate question to whether they are right.

    Radical and/or politicised religion in any form is a threat to a secular liberal society - this includes both christians and muslims, as far as I am concerned. It would include other radical religions too, but they aren't very visible in my part of the world. "God says so" is an argument far too easilly adopted by both sides in any conflict. I've nothing against religious inspiration for political leaders, but if they can't then go on to explain themselves in a way that is accessible to everyone and allows discussion, then they should STFU.

    However I do worry that radical politicised religion is not actually always the main target. It may be more about migration and integration than anything else, in which case that is what the debate should be about, not religion.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Awesome, I dont understand that website or what its about but I love the blue EU flags with yellow hammer and sickle and EUSSR or whatever on it, where could I get one of them do you think? Could we make it possible if we work really hard

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