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  1. #51
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Err...actually....African slavery was a huge component of early capitalism, as was subsistance farming well into the mid-20th century. I agree with the person above me: Capitalism began long before Adam Smith. It was a way for early "explorers" to capture, steal, and dominate the lands of other people. It virtually destroyed any and all Native American culture. 19th century capitalism was, in fact, white slavery. It was an excuse to work a certain class of people to death just because they were there. Don't believe the hype? Capitalism as we now know it in it's much more effective and "fair" state is actually a product of blending capitalism with socialism.
    False. Slavery is kidnapping, not capitalism. The early days of slavery predate modern capitalism. The vast majority of the Western world was still operating under mercantilism. Capitalism was NOT white slavery. Slaves don't get to choose to work or not. That implication is not just wrong, it's incredibly insensitive to the memory of people who were stolen from their home and forced to work against their will. How on Earth can you compare that atrocity to people who WILLINGLY left farms to take jobs in factories? That is outrageous. Also, living standards and life expectancies grew at an unprecedented rate during and immediately after the Industrial Revolution. It was a fantastic boon for the poorest people.
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  2. #52
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    Slavery helped English and American capitalism rise in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    You have a very idealistic way of looking at capitalism - yes, what you're saying is partly true. I never said that capitalism is "all bad." However, working people literally to physical death at unbelievably unfair wages and treating them like so much chattle is what most people refer to as "white slavery." White slavery, like most forms of slavery, actually starts in the mind. If you can keep people ignorant enough and push their self-esteem low enough, you can get them to jump through as many flaming hoops as possible to eat substandard meal as you line your pockets with gold by their labors.

    Also, many people *liked* being subsistance farmers, particularly in the Southern Appalachian region, and were outraged when fat cats forced them off of their land. They didn't consider giving up freedom, independence, and property in the great outdoors to work for a greedy tycoon in an unsafe, unsanitary, cramped factory a "boon" by any stretch of the imagination.

    Yes, there are some good things about capitalism, but there are also some very sick, dark things about it too. To ignore that is to deny history, and the present reality of people in third world countries working in sweat shops so that Americans can buy goods cheaply.

    There must be a balance.

  3. #53
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    False. Slavery is kidnapping, not capitalism. The early days of slavery predate modern capitalism.
    Merc, slavery was both capitalism & kidnapping. The semantics are not worth debating.

    Large shipments of people were bought and sold in order to supply Europe with new products.

    The merchants even calculated typical death rates on the ships and factored them into profitability equations.

    An evil business. And business it was; without the profit factor it would never have happened. Capitalism at is worse.

    All the best.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Merc, slavery was both capitalism & kidnapping. The semantics are not worth debating.

    Large shipments of people were bought and sold in order to supply Europe with new products.

    The merchants even calculated typical death rates on the ships and factored them into profitability equations.

    An evil business. And business it was; without the profit factor it would never have happened. Capitalism at is worse.

    All the best.

    By your standards, anything that results in profit = capitalism. That's ridiculous. Is robbing an old lady capitalism? No. Even if it were legal, it's still not. And you're wrong about slavery not happening without a profit factor. Slavery predates capitalism by thousands of years.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Slavery helped English and American capitalism rise in the 18th and 19th centuries.
    Slavery was criminal behavior, though. Bootlegging, theft, and bribery helped the rise of labor unions in the early-20th century. Does that mean that labor unionism = criminality? Preposterous.


    You have a very idealistic way of looking at capitalism - yes, what you're saying is partly true. I never said that capitalism is "all bad." However, working people literally to physical death at unbelievably unfair wages and treating them like so much chattle is what most people refer to as "white slavery." White slavery, like most forms of slavery, actually starts in the mind. If you can keep people ignorant enough and push their self-esteem low enough, you can get them to jump through as many flaming hoops as possible to eat substandard meal as you line your pockets with gold by their labors.
    This argument doesn't hold water. First of all, who are you to say what is an "unfair wage?" If a wage is agreed to between the employer and employee, it is fair by definition. Forcing someone to work is slavery. Paying someone low wages is nothing of the sort. I am not being idealistic at all. There are always crooks in any sort of system (a favorite example is ranchers in the West trying to force/coerce smaller competitors out, using posses and corrupt government officials to do so). And you have not addressed this point: if someone decided to go to work in a foundry because they were making significantly more money than they had as a farmer, how would that be unfair? They went voluntarily.


    Also, many people *liked* being subsistance farmers, particularly in the Southern Appalachian region, and were outraged when fat cats forced them off of their land. They didn't consider giving up freedom, independence, and property in the great outdoors to work for a greedy tycoon in an unsafe, unsanitary, cramped factory a "boon" by any stretch of the imagination.
    I am sorry, but this is rather ridiculous. Not wanting to get your land snatched through extralegal means is totally understandable. But your position that "many people" never wanted wage work is laughable. Why was there such a gigantic increase in movement from rural areas to urban and immigration from Europe? The government didn't move in and say, "Hey! You better start working in the factory, or else!" In fact, the government was basically giving away land in the West to people who wanted to farm, while the northern and eastern parts of the country were rapidly industrializing/urbanizing.


    Yes, there are some good things about capitalism, but there are also some very sick, dark things about it too. To ignore that is to deny history, and the present reality of people in third world countries working in sweat shops so that Americans can buy goods cheaply.

    There must be a balance.
    People work in so-called "sweat shops" because they feel that it's their best chance to improve their lives. Keeping prices lower is VERY important to the world economy, and getting better-paying jobs in Third World countries is a net positive for everyone.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    By your standards, anything that results in profit = capitalism. That's ridiculous. Is robbing an old lady capitalism? No. Even if it were legal, it's still not. And you're wrong about slavery not happening without a profit factor. Slavery predates capitalism by thousands of years.
    Merc. Don't be a dipstick. It's called the slave trade for a reason.

    I recommend you to view the subject matter in a less bipolar manner and open your mind to the possibility that capitalism might not only be less than perfect, but also have an inauspicious - and well-documented - history.

    All the best to you.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Merc. Don't be a dipstick. It's called the slave trade for a reason.

    I recommend you to view the subject matter in a less bipolar manner and open your mind to the possibility that capitalism might not only be less than perfect, but also have an inauspicious - and well-documented - history.

    All the best to you.

    And I wholeheartedly disagree with what you are saying, and I've documented several reasons why. I'm not being a "dipstick." I am trying to prove my point, and I have a lot of evidence with which to do so.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post


    This argument doesn't hold water. First of all, who are you to say what is an "unfair wage?" If a wage is agreed to between the employer and employee, it is fair by definition. Forcing someone to work is slavery. Paying someone low wages is nothing of the sort. I am not being idealistic at all. There are always crooks in any sort of system (a favorite example is ranchers in the West trying to force/coerce smaller competitors out, using posses and corrupt government officials to do so). And you have not addressed this point: if someone decided to go to work in a foundry because they were making significantly more money than they had as a farmer, how would that be unfair? They went voluntarily.
    Lots of people do lots of things voluntarily because someone told them it would be great. That doesn't mean that reality lives up to a promise. Many people were extratraordinarily optimistic about WWI, and look how that went.





    People work in so-called "sweat shops" because they feel that it's their best chance to improve their lives. Keeping prices lower is VERY important to the world economy, and getting better-paying jobs in Third World countries is a net positive for everyone.

    This is absolutely HILIARIOUS. And sweet, so sweet that telling yourself these things is how you can sleep at night, safe in the knowledge that the white man's burden has been fulfilled.

    This argument isn't going to go anywhere, I can tell. When a person is stubbornly in love with an abstract idea, it's very difficult to talk them out of it. Nothing personal, but I think maybe some exposure to the life experiences of people who have experienced something besides being a white, American, heterosexual male might be beneficial to your world view.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Lots of people do lots of things voluntarily because someone told them it would be great. That doesn't mean that reality lives up to a promise. Many people were extratraordinarily optimistic about WWI, and look how that went.
    The decision to work or not is only valid between an employer and employee. Did those early wage laborers have it tough? Hell yeah. Did they do it gladly because the alternatives were far worse? Yes, they did.


    This is absolutely HILIARIOUS. And sweet, so sweet that telling yourself these things is how you can sleep at night, safe in the knowledge that the white man's burden has been fulfilled.
    I sleep great at night, especially knowing that I am working toward bettering my socioeconomic status, which helps to improve the entire world.


    This argument isn't going to go anywhere, I can tell. When a person is stubbornly in love with an abstract idea, it's very difficult to talk them out of it. Nothing personal, but I think maybe some exposure to the life experiences of people who have experienced something besides being a white, American, heterosexual male might be beneficial to your world view.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You SLAY me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but you probably will want to delete that paragraph, because it makes you look like a ignorant tool. I am certain that I have exposed to more of the world than you EVER have been, and that just reinforces what I am saying here.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The decision to work or not is only valid between an employer and employee. Did those early wage laborers have it tough? Hell yeah. Did they do it gladly because the alternatives were far worse? Yes, they did.
    Actually they did it because they were ignorant and often lied to. People wanted the fuck out of many of those early "valid decisions" between worker and employer, which was why unions had to be formed. Unions weren't formed by the government - they were formed by people who were like, "fuck this, my 8 year old shouldn't be working in a coal mine."




    I sleep great at night, especially knowing that I am working toward bettering my socioeconomic status, which helps to improve the entire world.
    Isn't it fun to be delusional?




    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You SLAY me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but you probably will want to delete that paragraph, because it makes you look like a ignorant tool. I am certain that I have exposed to more of the world than you EVER have been, and that just reinforces what I am saying here.
    Oh, so you assume that because I live in West Virginia and am currently enrolled in university that I've never been anywhere? I'm 32 years old and I've traveled quite a bit. I've lived in Southern California, you know, and one of the primary things I noticed there is a cultural determination to believe that they are the center of the universe, which permeates out into the rest of America to be sure, but it's so intensified there as to be nauseating.

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