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  1. #71
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    You are not alone, Mr. Spock.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I'm just writing down my own experience and observations as a fellow asian. But it would make more sense that if individuals are so concerned about family and bonds, or a culture that promotes family and society, that they would indeed be closer to them on a personal level. Yet oddly enough this has not been my experience and appears to be relatively true for other chinese friends. There's more a sense of detached respect for elders. I just find it very funny.

    Obviously my conclusion and experience will be different as I'm speaking from the perspective of a BBC.
    Yeah, I just didn't see its relevance to what you quoted.

    It would not necessarily follow that individuals concerned about family and bonds would mean that they are closer to either entities. Not when the relationship is based on socially-dictated responsibilities, and not the needs of the individual. I can be a socially-defined "good daughter" and "good citizen" but not get what I need emotionally from my family. On the other hand, I know families who fight all the time, but are very close because they understand each other and are unconditionally supportive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Hmm?

    If they are still fighting on. Can you really classify it as a failure? I'd have admiration for someone who can do so.
    Sympathy is for those who have given up on themselves and their life.
    Perhaps this is where the communication failure is occuring.
    Yes, it is failure by objective standards. He did not win a medal. The whole idea of "participating, not winning is the most important thing" is a very Western one. There are no "best handwriting" awards in Asia, I can assure you. You get caned for bad handwriting (until you improve), criticised for average handwriting and if yours is the best, no one will say anything.

    In a similar fashion, sympathy is for people who try their best and fail. People who give up on themselves shouldn't expect others to care about them or to lend them a helping hand. There is an oft-repeated phrase, "if you don't help yourself, how can you expect others to help you?" which applies here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    What sharpness? I'm confused as to why you are apologizing... Either way, that makes sense. I had a lot of Asian friends in high school and I remember parents getting blamed every time we went out and got drunk. I kind of felt bad since I had one friend in particular who got into drugs and was a constant source of shame for the rest of the family. It seemed like a lot of pressure. But I get it. Everyone has their own set of values.
    Eh, I felt I was being sharp. Anyway.

    Yes, there is pressure. It's socially/family-imposed until it's so ingrained in the individual that it becomes self-imposed. Businessmen around the world may work 90-100 hours a week, but in the Western world, it's because they want to get ahead. In the East, it's because they feel like they have a responsibility to. The Japanese businessmen suicide phenomenon is a product of that.

  3. #73
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Yeah, I just didn't see its relevance to what you quoted.

    It would not necessarily follow that individuals concerned about family and bonds would mean that they are closer to either entities. Not when the relationship is based on socially-dictated responsibilities, and not the needs of the individual. I can be a socially-defined "good daughter" and "good citizen" but not get what I need emotionally from my family. On the other hand, I know families who fight all the time, but are very close because they understand each other and are unconditionally supportive.
    That does make total sense.

    Yes, it is failure by objective standards. He did not win a medal. The whole idea of "participating, not winning is the most important thing" is a very Western one.
    Curious, what do you personally think of the latter statement?
    While it's not exactly the same as winning: My father talks about just doing your best as you possibly can. Surely this isn't just a western ideal, but an eastern ideal as well?

    Essentially how important is success by objective winning compared to determination of pushing through and doing your best (participating).

    In a similar fashion, sympathy is for people who try their best and fail. People who give up on themselves shouldn't expect others to care about them or to lend them a helping hand. There is an oft-repeated phrase, "if you don't help yourself, how can you expect others to help you?" which applies here.
    Agreed with that last statement, although there are times when some people hit the bottom low that it's not possible to recover without assistance first. Otherwise we wouldn't have suicides in the first place. Perhaps this is a feeler thing, expressing sympathy and empathy towards people who have had their will crushed so low that they can not get back up.

    I'm now curious for example the difference in depression rates in the west and east. How much of it exists and how many people seek out help?

    Not to mention from what I last recalled Asia generally had a very negative reaction towards individuals with social problems such as depression, schizoid and all that including people in wheel chairs etc. Partially due to the whole success driven culture that now exists within Asia, and the feelings of not wanting to burden society as mentioned previously. I've sort of gone off tangent now....

    Opinions? Correct me if I'm incorrect in some places.

  4. #74
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    ^ Responded via PM to avoid derailing the thread.

  5. #75
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    I always wondered if anyone had done that, probably not the first time someone lend a helping hand..

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    A suicide jumper was pushed off the bridge.

    How ironic.
    Yeah.

  6. #76
    Your time is gonna come. Oom's Avatar
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    I don't see why people think that a suicidal person has a chemical imbalance or something. I consider it to be like quitting baseball. Quitting life isn't much different, it's a natural part of life when circumstances are pointing towards it.

    We've been committing suicide for thousands of years, it's kind of like all of the wars we read about in our history books. Ceasar got stabbed by all of his senate members, and his best friend. If that were to happen now, it would make international attention.

    Back then it was just another way to keep on keepin' on. How ironic that we shun all of the things that come naturally to us. We've split ourselves apart from our history like disowning a child.

    Why would a person in a bad situation commit suicide on the other hand? Maybe they see that being dead wouldn't be so bad. Maybe it's great. Nobody I know can tell me that being dead is the worst thing in the world. We just dont know what it is.

    Death, killing, and suicide are natural parts of being in the animal kingdom.

  7. #77
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    First of all, I would like to add what nonsequitur had said, Asian countries had a more group-attached norms. The..sense of normalcy, the conformity, is very high. Even within those teenager groups who are called "deviant". I think this kind of problem had happened in Western / simply American cliques too, but I think personally the standard itself is higher on Asian cultures. Think of it as...highschool cliques. From what I perceived (yay for betrayal of type) the members of the clique themselves, no matter how same, still have individuality. In Asian culture it's less of "wearing an insignia" than "joining an entity compromising of people".

    So, yeah, acts like this will be condemned not due to its value by itself (like most of us did here), but more likely for "disturbing the society, disturbing other people". My own country's culture itself are a mix of both (more like, "this is wrong, because it's bad, and the fact that it disturbs people adds more") so I can understand both principles a little. In fact, while the act itself, I understand, is very wrong, I couldn't disagree with the pusher's reason.

    And then the value of this kind of act..yeah, I think low of it. I think most truly desperate people who'd really, really had no hope of life wouldn't do it publicly, or simply don't care where. And they deserve nothing but sympathy and grief. This kind of people seems to look for the best place for people to see... and to me, it screams "LOOK AT ME I AM SUFFERING HEAR MY WHININGS BITCHES"

    ...uh.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Typology's Avatar
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    It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.
    Only after disaster can we be resurrected.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    The following is unusual: Suicide teenager urged to jump by baying crowd - Telegraph

    Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.
    sick. truly bloody sick.
    when large crowds gather they do things which are not typically done by them. some may even do things which they think are quite repulsive.

    but there are no excuses for acts like this. it is truly sick.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typology View Post
    It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.
    Strangely, I personally don't think those kind of people are desperate enough.

    If they're desperate enough, I think they'll simply want.it.to.END. They won't look for attention.

    Of course, that's my own opinion...

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