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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Default Understanding Right and Left values

    I've recently been examining extreme conservative and extreme liberal values, and I've noticed a pattern.

    Extreme right values are usually focused completely and totally on the good of society in the long-term, and completely neglect the issues of quality of an individuals life, fairness, and personal happiness.

    Extreme left values are usually focused on individual rights, fairness, and progress that can reduce social cohesion and increase risk of future collapse.

    So in other words, the right can be seen as a manifestation of an extremely collective-oriented perspective, and the left is a manifestation of an extremely individual-oriented perspective.

    It seems that both of them have opposite blind spots. Do you suppose this means that without the right, we would have chaos, and without the left, we would have stagnation? Do the two sides rely on maintaining their mutual conflict to exist?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've recently been examining extreme conservative and extreme liberal values, and I've noticed a pattern.

    Extreme right values are usually focused completely and totally on the good of society in the long-term, and completely neglect the issues of quality of an individuals life, fairness, and personal happiness.

    Extreme left values are usually focused on individual rights, fairness, and progress that can reduce social cohesion and increase risk of future collapse.

    So in other words, the right can be seen as a manifestation of an extremely collective-oriented perspective, and the left is a manifestation of an extremely individual-oriented perspective.

    It seems that both of them have opposite blind spots. Do you suppose this means that without the right, we would have chaos, and without the left, we would have stagnation? Do the two sides rely on maintaining their mutual conflict to exist?
    My analysis of the left and right is just the opposite. The left is the collective oriented side, while the right is individual oriented. Individualism is expressed through capitalism, for example. Capitalism is highly supported on the right, whereas the left has a tendency to demonize it and cater to other systems such as socialism, which involve government redistribution of wealth on the premise of it being supportive of the collective. Give up your wealth to government in order to help others, as oppose to helping others around you of your own accord, choice, and free will. In those elements, you have it completely backwards.

    There are many other elements to the right and left, historically, in the political machinery/political class, and in the actual beliefs of average citizens. What you will find is that they all go towards different perspectives, philosophies, and beliefs. It is just as divided in definition as are republican and conservative, or democrat and liberal, or progressive. These all have different meanings, and if you try to muddy them and broad brush them you will completely lose sight of what they actually represent, and of what you are talking about. An argument between you and I about what it means to be right or left will neither be the same as an argument between republican/democrat politicians, nor the same as a contrast of the historical positions of the parties. You must first confine the argument to define it.

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    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I am afraid that you are mixing left/right with freedom/authority aspect.

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    My analysis of the left and right is just the opposite. The left is the collective oriented side, while the right is individual oriented. Individualism is expressed through capitalism, for example. Capitalism is highly supported on the right, whereas the left has a tendency to demonize it and cater to other systems such as socialism, which involve government redistribution of wealth on the premise of it being supportive of the collective. Give up your wealth to government in order to help others, as oppose to helping others around you of your own accord, choice, and free will. In those elements, you have it completely backwards.
    Oh, I suppose I wasn't thinking in those terms. I was focused more on social issues than economic issues (probably because I'm an F). I kind of forgot about economic issues.
    There are many other elements to the right and left, historically, in the political machinery/political class, and in the actual beliefs of average citizens. What you will find is that they all go towards different perspectives, philosophies, and beliefs. It is just as divided in definition as are republican and conservative, or democrat and liberal, or progressive. These all have different meanings, and if you try to muddy them and broad brush them you will completely lose sight of what they actually represent, and of what you are talking about. An argument between you and I about what it means to be right or left will neither be the same as an argument between republican/democrat politicians, nor the same as a contrast of the historical positions of the parties. You must first confine the argument to define it.
    Oh. I guess I just wanted to figure what the pattern was in how they evaluated things. Trying to figure out the thinking on specific issues wasn't really my interest. If there's not a pattern in how they make judgments, then they're both just a bit of a chaotic mess of values with no meaning.

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    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    The left hopes to change the very nature of man for its own good (progressives), while the right prefers to prevent the current situation from constantly deteriorating (conservatives).

    The two points of view are necessary to balance democracy.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    Another perspective:
    The left believes society has an obligation to contribute to the individual. The right (not far right, mind you) believes the individual has the obligation to contribute to society.
    Assume we all agreed that the goal of society were that every individual enjoy self-respect. The left thinks it can be bestowed or given. The right believes it must be earned.
    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Fiver is correct, it is freeing to not have to impress someone, to be accepted for who you really are.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
    Another perspective:
    The left believes society has an obligation to contribute to the individual. The right (not far right, mind you) believes the individual has the obligation to contribute to society.
    Assume we all agreed that the goal of society were that every individual enjoy self-respect. The left thinks it can be bestowed or given. The right believes it must be earned.
    I would also say that the left believes that self-respect can be earned as well, but also that everyone deserves a baseline from which they can build upon that foundation. It's much easier to build your self-worth when you're starting on a building that already has the foundation laid out for you.. if you have to start from scratch, and are already disadvantaged in some way (being a minority, havin a lower-class upbringing and therefore less support from parents, lack of college education / ability, etc.) then it becomes even more harrowing to start - you can scarcely build a solid foundation when there's a tornado going on in your lot.

    But the money has to come from somewhere. In the right's view, every person should have the ability to build their house as high as they want, without restriction on who they hurt on their way to get there (lol not biased at all). The left is more apt to set a limit on how high the house can get, but in exchange, building the house is about as equally difficult for everyone, even those who were not blessed with wealth from the beginning of life. There are still going to be economic losers in the left's state, but at least those people will have access to the basic needs of humanity; food, water, shelter, work training, and medical care. The rest is up to the individual.
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    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I would also say that the left believes that self-respect can be earned as well, but also that everyone deserves a baseline from which they can build upon that foundation. It's much easier to build your self-worth when you're starting on a building that already has the foundation laid out for you.. if you have to start from scratch, and are already disadvantaged in some way (being a minority, havin a lower-class upbringing and therefore less support from parents, lack of college education / ability, etc.) then it becomes even more harrowing to start - you can scarcely build a solid foundation when there's a tornado going on in your lot.

    But the money has to come from somewhere. In the right's view, every person should have the ability to build their house as high as they want, without restriction on who they hurt on their way to get there (lol not biased at all). The left is more apt to set a limit on how high the house can get, but in exchange, building the house is about as equally difficult for everyone, even those who were not blessed with wealth from the beginning of life. There are still going to be economic losers in the left's state, but at least those people will have access to the basic needs of humanity; food, water, shelter, work training, and medical care. The rest is up to the individual.
    I think you should rather seek a more universal definition of Left and Right.

    What you are claiming here, is a very americano-centrist diagnosis. There are several kinds of left and several kinds of right, and you are describing only one of each.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Fiver's Avatar
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    I am happy with the Americano diagnosis for purposes of this discussion.

    I couldn't agree more with you Jeremy that, using your analogy, a foundation is necessary. The question is how to build it and what culture you create when you do.

    The fallacy of the left is that their policies unwittingly (?) create a culture of entitlement that leads to gradual, but none the less real reductions in personal responsibility. There isn't enough cultural incentive to make decisions that result in taking care of your parents, much less your children or even yourself.

    The trick would be to build a culture where everyone's foundation is solid, but the incentive to build the highest house possible is still there.
    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Fiver is correct, it is freeing to not have to impress someone, to be accepted for who you really are.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Right: Life isn't fair and it never will be. You have to prove yourself.

    Left: Everyone is the best at everything. Life isn't fair...waaaaah. If someone succeeds, they must be corrupt.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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