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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Sweden rules 'gender-based' abortion legal - The Local


    Sweden rules 'gender-based' abortion legal

    "Swedish health authorities have ruled that gender-based abortion is not illegal according to current law and can not therefore be stopped, according to a report by Sveriges Television..."(more at link)



    Thoughts?
    If you consider yourself to be pro-choice, and this bothers you, perhaps you should rethink your position.

    Personally, I couldn't care less.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm not much for abortion, and especially over what to me are inconsequential reasons.

    Some other countries permit gender inequitiy, I'm not sure of the abortion rate in China especially with the one-child rule in the cities, but instead of aborting all the girls, they just stick them in orphanages if the parents later have a boy. I'm not sure if Sweden has a cultural bias like that, but if you're going to abort a baby at mid-point or later just over gender, I'd worry about the health and safety of any other children under those parents' care simply because what if the children who are born fail to satisfy some other preference of their parents?

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I have never even understood the "development" argument either though. As soon as you know you're pregnant, any conscious choice to end that pregnancy is a prevention of life. I never understood the "well it doesn't have a face yet lol it can't be sad and doesn't have feelings" crap.
    Since a lot of fertilized eggs end up being miscarried, I'm not surprised that it's hard to emotionally attach until the baby makes a noticeable difference in the mother's appearance and to her daily routine -- at that point, it's more stable too and probably will make it through the birthing process. It's only a fairly recent thing in history for people to know they're pregnant a few weeks afterwards and be able to monitor the baby; normally it would take a few months until the mom's body and hormonal routine would change before people knew, and gender was not even known until birth. Tech has definitely made things more complicated and also caused us to read into things that older cultures did not -- even in the Jewish law (from which Christianity was derived), a man who assaulted a pregnant woman and caused her to miscarry her baby was NOT treated as a murderer (and put to death), he just had to pay her husband some money. The baby's life until born was not treated as equitable to an existing life outside the womb.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    heart on fire
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    General question: What about if one gender starts to become aborted more often and off set the natural balance in genders?

    Or say we start to have a society of all first born males and second born females, how will this effect the way that boys and girls grow up as a whole in society? To clarify, what would society be like if a large number of males had a first born mindset and a large number of females had a second born mindset?

  4. #14
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not much for abortion, and especially over what to me are inconsequential reasons.

    Some other countries permit gender inequitiy, I'm not sure of the abortion rate in China especially with the one-child rule in the cities, but instead of aborting all the girls, they just stick them in orphanages if the parents later have a boy. I'm not sure if Sweden has a cultural bias like that, but if you're going to abort a baby at mid-point or later just over gender, I'd worry about the health and safety of any other children under those parents' care simply because what if the children who are born fail to satisfy some other preference of their parents?
    fucking brilliant point (does it matter that i cuss so much?)
    but really...that's the point...you're that kind of parent...should you even be allowed to have kids!?

    i think i'm pro choice though...so^^ that doesn't sit well with me either! damn.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #15
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Don't see the problem myself, however it's far more effective to just get yourself artificially inseminated by a spermie of the proper gender if gender is that important to you. (I saw on discovery that this is possible, iirc.)

    I can understand religions being against it, and I can respect that. As long as the choice is the mothers however I see no wrong in abortion. (Family or indirectly forced abortions and such however I am against. :P )
    Lol I'm not really in the mood for a debate right now, just throwing it out there, but what about the father?

    Yeah, this matter is really complex for me. Just too many variables. That's why I usually fall back on being against any kind of abortion, unless there are health risks for the mother.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    General question: What about if one gender starts to become aborted more often and off set the natural balance in genders?

    Or say we start to have a society of all first born males and second born females, how will this effect the way that boys and girls grow up as a whole in society? To clarify, what would society be like if a large number of males had a first born mindset and a large number of females had a second born mindset?
    If you disallowed this, people would just lie about their reasoning.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I have never even understood the "development" argument either though.

    As soon as you know you're pregnant, any conscious choice to end that pregnancy is a prevention of life. I never understood the "well it doesn't have a face yet lol it can't be sad and doesn't have feelings" crap.
    Yeah, I think your body changes significantly as a woman and you can feel the quickening, the movements, of the baby. At that point, it can be kind of... icky, for lack of a better word. And depending on how far along, the type of removal process can be a bit more... intense.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    General question: What about if one gender starts to become aborted more often and off set the natural balance in genders?

    Or say we start to have a society of all first born males and second born females, how will this effect the way that boys and girls grow up as a whole in society? To clarify, what would society be like if a large number of males had a first born mindset and a large number of females had a second born mindset?
    In a way, I just consider that to be part of our evolution. Maybe if people are killing off girls, it balances out generationally due to all the boys we've lost in wars in the past? I don't know, I haven't thought that through yet, but I'm getting the general idea that anything we do now is contributing to our next step, and advancement or change isn't always bad. I guess I have to think more about that, but somehow, the situation presented doesn't bother me.

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not much for abortion, and especially over what to me are inconsequential reasons.

    Some other countries permit gender inequitiy, I'm not sure of the abortion rate in China especially with the one-child rule in the cities, but instead of aborting all the girls, they just stick them in orphanages if the parents later have a boy. I'm not sure if Sweden has a cultural bias like that, but if you're going to abort a baby at mid-point or later just over gender, I'd worry about the health and safety of any other children under those parents' care simply because what if the children who are born fail to satisfy some other preference of their parents?
    I am conflicted about the issue overall, but this point brings to mind some things my special education professor was sharing with his grad students. He worked for many years with a group of boys with severe physical and emotional disorders and he recounted a number of them had been neglected severely by teenage parents which directly caused their disorders and physical handicaps. The stories were quite graphic, and I don't want to share them here for drama, but the quality of life for those children was severely compromised by parents who were not invested in their well being.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Nobody's for abortion, in any case. I think it's very sad and I would prefer that no woman feel the need for it; however, it's not for me to say what any other woman does. If we don't allow abortion, we in effect force people to have children they don't want -- because they can't support them, because they know they have no interest, or for whatever reason. Birth control is not 100% effective.

    Girl children are already hugely less valued than boys.
    Sex-selective abortion and female infanticide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It's a sad fact of life.
    I would rather they be aborted than abandoned to starve to death. (I mean, I'd rather none of this happen, but since it does, it seems more merciful to abort than to kill after birth.)
    In Cambodia, 30 thousand girls have been sold into prostitution by their own parents.
    Children for sale - Dateline NBC- msnbc.com

    Females are throw-away in many societies. Sweden's just facing facts.

  10. #20
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    General question: What about if one gender starts to become aborted more often and off set the natural balance in genders?

    Or say we start to have a society of all first born males and second born females, how will this effect the way that boys and girls grow up as a whole in society? To clarify, what would society be like if a large number of males had a first born mindset and a large number of females had a second born mindset?
    Well, look at China, where sex-selective abortion is prohibited but widespread
    China facing major gender imbalance - Asia-Pacific - msnbc.com
    China facing major gender imbalance
    Country will soon have millions more men than women of marriageable age
    The Associated Press
    updated 10:37 a.m. ET, Fri., Jan. 12, 2007

    BEIJING - China will have 30 million more men of marriageable age than women in less than 15 years as a gender imbalance resulting from the countrys tough one-child policy becomes more pronounced, state media reported Friday.

    The tens of millions of men who will not be able to find a wife could also lead to social instability problems, the China Daily said in a front-page report.

    China imposed strict population controls in the 1970s to limit growth of its huge population, but one side effect has been a jump in gender selection of babies. Traditional preferences for a son mean some women abort their baby if an early term sonogram shows it is a girl.

    Discrimination against the female sex remains the primary cause of Chinas growing gender imbalance, Liu Bohong, vice director of the women studies institute under the All-China Womens Federation, was quoted as saying in a report from the State Population and Family Planning Commission.

    Sex selective abortion is prohibited but the government says the practice remains widespread, especially in rural areas.
    Question: Is the legality itself going to cause any behavioral shift or is Sweden now only declaring to be legal something that people do already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Some other countries permit gender inequitiy, I'm not sure of the abortion rate in China especially with the one-child rule in the cities, but instead of aborting all the girls, they just stick them in orphanages if the parents later have a boy.
    Stuff like this fuels my misanthropy. Where's the love for your own child?

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