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  1. #61
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heh, I love threads like this. Reminds me why the laws are around to protect people from themselves. And why it is vastly better to have reps do it, rather than direct democracy.
    Great, another dissenting opinion! Now, let's hear your reasoning!

  2. #62
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Gay marriage, for instance. You've got to be beyond brainwashed to want to outlaw marriage for gays. You've got to be a fucking moron. These people are like fucking Hitler. If I really thought you guys needed education on this matter, I'd be angrily posting about it.
    you have to understand, for a lot of people, marriage is a religious institution and not just a civil institution. the religious belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman to these people is just like any other belief or tradition.

    under this light, putting religious beliefs under the jurisdiction of the courts or the voting public justifiably evokes a sense of fear -- the government is tampering in religious mandates.

    the source of the conflict is the dual nature of marriage: religious and civil. while pro-gay marriage community sees their fight as securing their own rights. the anti-gay marriage community sees the fight as protecting their religion. both have legitimate arguments.

    that said, i think that if two people of whatever sex want to enjoy the benefits of marriage then they should have the right to do so.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  3. #63
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Great, another dissenting opinion! Now, let's hear your reasoning!
    For what...? Why certain things should be illegal? Waste of time. Any argument that runs counter to "unlimited freedom for all", or anything pro-social good runs into the brick wall of ideology.

  4. #64
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    you have to understand, for a lot of people, marriage is a religious institution and not just a civil institution. the religious belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman to these people is just like any other belief or tradition.

    under this light, putting religious beliefs under the jurisdiction of the courts or the voting public justifiably evokes a sense of fear -- the government is tampering in religious mandates.

    the source of the conflict is the dual nature of marriage: religious and civil. while pro-gay marriage community sees their fight as securing their own rights. the anti-gay marriage community sees the fight as protecting their religion. both have legitimate arguments.

    that said, i think that if two people of whatever sex want to enjoy the benefits of marriage then they should have the right to do so.
    Heheh, I hate to debate religion in this thread, but..

    I don't think that anti-gay-marriage religious folks are looking deeply enough into the meaning of their religion, and that's a problem. They merely have to ask themselves - "what would Jesus do?" Accept. Allow. Love. With deep reflection, I personally come to the conclusion that marriage is about love. Institution is merely an excuse to mask an actual desire to oppress people who are different and thus, threatening.

  5. #65
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    For what...? Why certain things should be illegal? Waste of time. Any argument that runs counter to "unlimited freedom for all", or anything pro-social good runs into the brick wall of ideology.
    Laws are idealistic. You think we can save the world with a bunch of puny laws? That's what these anti-drug crusaders think. They think that outlawing some drug is gonna save the world from it. That's shitty idealism.

    If anything, I feel idealistically anti-idealistic. To be a realist here would be to do nothing and not feed the fire. There's a time for that, and hey, maybe it's now! I don't know. Just saying, the laws are this "brick wall of ideology" that you speak of. I'm a realist most of the time, in the sense that I take drugs illegally and don't make a show of it.

  6. #66
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The government shouldn't be in the business of stigmatizing behavior that doesn't affect other people. If someone is addicted to crack and he robs someone to feed his addiction, you punish him for robbery. If someone is addicted to crack and he just wants to live in his shitty apartment and not do anything, well, that is sad but it doesn't hurt everyone else. There should be more freedom AND more responsibility in this society. Adultery should be stigmatized. We don't go arresting and stoning adulterers in the U.S. Should we be doing that?
    We are the government. Ergo, if we choose to stigmatize it, we stigmatize it through law enforcement means. We do this all the time for plenty of things that do not explicitly harm other people. Also, addiction does affect other people. It hurts everyone if we do not care about people harming themselves. Eventually it bleeds over.

    It would be harder to legislate sexual congress than the distribution of harmful substances, but we could make it harder to get married and divorced. Which would make adultery less compelling.

    Likewise, why shouldn't we have laws against adultery? If you want to be a cheater... don't get married. If you want to fuck around on your husband or wife, get a fucking divorce. See? Easy.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #67
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Heh, I love threads like this. Reminds me why the laws are around to protect people from themselves. And why it is vastly better to have reps do it, rather than direct democracy.
    Direct democracy leads to the tyranny of the strong over the weak. This is why Africa is fucked. No rule of law. The weak are too stupid and too foolish to even look after their own interests.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #68
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    For what...? Why certain things should be illegal? Waste of time. Any argument that runs counter to "unlimited freedom for all", or anything pro-social good runs into the brick wall of ideology.
    Right. These people are like children who hate having bed times.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #69
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Right. These people are like children who hate having bed times.
    Can't tell if you're joking or not.

  10. #70
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    We are the government. Ergo, if we choose to stigmatize it, we stigmatize it through law enforcement means. We do this all the time for plenty of things that do not explicitly harm other people. Also, addiction does affect other people. It hurts everyone if we do not care about people harming themselves. Eventually it bleeds over.
    We are NOT the government, and we are not supposed to be. This is not a direct democracy. It's a constitutional republic. People have rights no matter what the majority of society might vote at any time. One of them would be the right to decide what does or does not go into one's own body. Furthermore, addiction does NOT hurt everyone. I know perfectly nice, positive, productive people who, by government definition, are drug addicts. What is bleeding over from them in society?


    It would be harder to legislate sexual congress than the distribution of harmful substances, but we could make it harder to get married and divorced. Which would make adultery less compelling.

    Likewise, why shouldn't we have laws against adultery? If you want to be a cheater... don't get married. If you want to fuck around on your husband or wife, get a fucking divorce. See? Easy.
    So what would the punishment for adultery be? And would it actually stop people? No one who really wants to do drugs now is prevented by their being illegal. All criminalization does is make the drugs more dangerous and more expensive, and it enriches the most corrupt and violent people in our society. It happens with prostitution, as well. Any time you criminalize a vice, you create a lucrative black market that is far worse than what would happen if the vice were legal. Look what happened during Prohibition. The number of alcohol-related deaths skyrocketed, and the violent crime rate became outrageous.
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