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  1. #301
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ you weren't *totally* arguing against me on something? ..I suppose I'll have to make something special for dinner to celebrate.

    Like I said, I'm not alone on my very black-and-white bias with drugs. In my mind, it just makes sense. All drugs = not safe, people complain about the drugs that are already legal, so why put more into the system? If I saw in a probationary period, however, rehab centers being funded with drug sales, education being wider, people getting help that were scared to before, self-sustaining or even profitting government agencies and businesses, and all the other things I mentioned above, my judgements could be swayed. I haven't seen it yet though.

    Let me see a probationary period of a single drug proposed to be voted on, I guarantee you I will be there voting for it. Does that sound like a far compromise?

    I can't help but see the negatives on it all, and feel strongly on those negatives.. but I'm willing to admit I'm no expert on the matter and if safety proved to prevail in this I could be swayed. As of right now though, to go from zero to hero, No thank you. It's too much, all at once.
    But drugs are already legal in your country.

    We sell you narcotics.

    What do you think happens to you in hospital?

    They will give you Tasmanian morphine - and you will say thank you.

    But we would like you to have a choice - we would like you to have the choice between Tasmanian morphine and Afghan morphine.

    Of course we will tell you that Tasmanian morphine will put a hop in your step.

    But it is up to you to choose.

    And if you choose Afghan morphine you will not only feel better but you will be helping to end the Afghan war.

  2. #302
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's good for a rough sketch though. I'd really like to see a way where all drug taxes make the government agency assigned to regulating the licenses and distribution self-sustaining, as well as rehab centers being entirely funded by drug sales and taxes. I don't think everyone should be allowed to grow pot.. I think it ought to have the same limitations that alcohol does.
    I'd like to see if self-sufficient, too. Our current drug policy costs tens of billions of dollars a year.

    I'd also like to see WAY stricter punishments for (illegally) selling any drugs, especially to minors, and more strict punishments against kids caught with drugs, the harder the drug the bigger the punishment.
    I don't have a problem with harsh punishments for law breakers as long as there is a legal avenue. As for kids, I don't know what kind of punishments you had in mind, but I don't want anyone, kids or adults, going to jail for drug possession. Stick them in a treatment center.

    Selling drugs to kids? Throw the book at 'em.

    In the end, I couldn't care less what people do with their personal lives, but my strong bias against drugs based on my experiences makes me think there's no way I could see heroine on the shelf next to the nutter'butters. I feel like someone else's wants are enroaching upon my personal life. I would choose not to indulge in these things if they became legal, but I don't think I'm ready to see heroine on the shelf.
    Who said they'd be available at a grocery store? In some states, you can't even sell alcohol in supermarkets. Given all the red tape involved in selling drugs in my proposal, I don't see how that would even work for a supermarket-type retail outlet. What would most likely happen is new businesses would be started. And you probably wouldn't have to worry about those being next door to your supermarket, either. Most cities and counties have zoning laws (which is why you don't have strip clubs next to schools).

    As an alternative, (excluding pot) what about picking a popular drug that is borderline 'hard' (I'm no drug expert.. obviously.) and giving it a year's probationary period? Set up the government agency meant to control, and have that one drug set up in the system? I would be okay with this, I think. If I didn't see employees coming to work messed up, or places being robbed for the drugs people couldn't afford, and it didn't seem to make a big difference one way or the other.. then my hard judgements on it could be proven wrong, forcing me to change my thought process on the entire subject.
    I don't see how this would work. Illegal drugs, as a whole, have their own (black market) economy. So you wouldn't see many of the potential benefits if you only temporarily legalized something like cocaine. Gangs and cartels would still be involved in the trafficking of other drugs. And would legitimate businesses be started for something that is only temporary?

    If someone gets sold some crappy dope and it screws them up, they can't go sue that person. I can imagine the law suits piling up for something new like this, is what I meant. We sue McDonalds for giving us hot coffee.
    I don't see the lawsuits being any worse than what you see with prescription drugs. I'd rather see a safer product, even if there are more lawsuits.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #303
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's the calories, not the source (not talking health, just the programming.)

    You can try an experiment. Eat cinnamon buns - overdose on cinnamon. Then add cinnamon to other dishes. For a while, you'll really like cinnamon. Then try adding it to calorie-empty dishes while eating another spice with calories. Soon you won't like cinnamon.

    It's a crappy analogy anyway The point is that drugs are drugs because they cause excessive 'goodness', which the body craves. They are inherently addictive... that's what makes them good. Even if they cause no physical dependency, the psychological dependency is wired (like the food example).

    edit: An interesting aside from this, I trained myself to eat cilantro by having it with a pork chop, simply by ordering a dish at my favorite restaurant that fried it with the pork chop. Like it in the sense that I now eat it like salad o_O
    I think we lack enough understanding of the brain for us to say it's not possible.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #304
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I think something you anti-drug people may be forgetting here is that certain drugs always seem to lead to terrible consequence because you only hear about the ones that go badly.

    Drug use is much more widespread than you may think; the successful doctor who does coke on the weekends isn't going to run around broadcasting it. You don't hear about these because the people involved are responsible enough to use the drugs in moderation.

    The cases you hear about through the grapevine where some idiot pawned everything he owned for more crack are actually not that common relative to the unknown cases where nothing serious goes wrong; they're just the ones that get media attention.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #305
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think something you anti-drug people may be forgetting here is that certain drugs always seem to lead to terrible consequence because you only hear about the ones that go badly.

    Drug use is much more widespread than you may think; the successful doctor who does coke on the weekends isn't going to run around broadcasting it. You don't hear about these because the people involved are responsible enough to use the drugs in moderation.

    The cases you hear about through the grapevine where some idiot pawned everything he owned for more crack are actually not that common relative to the unknown cases where nothing serious goes wrong; they're just the ones that get media attention.
    I know people in real life, you know? I'm not living in a drug sheltered bubble where I get all my information from the media or something.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #306
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't have a problem with harsh punishments for law breakers as long as there is a legal avenue. As for kids, I don't know what kind of punishments you had in mind, but I don't want anyone, kids or adults, going to jail for drug possession. Stick them in a treatment center.
    I mean, kids get caught with drugs, they're not forced to go to counseling, or forced to do after school programs.. etc.

    Most cities and counties have zoning laws (which is why you don't have strip clubs next to schools).
    Well, the nutter-butter comment was my lame attempt at humor since I'm not in as serious of a mood as my posts are indicating, but it would DEFINTELY have to be zoned.. I could see them being sold in smoke shops and the like. I don't know if it'd be a good idea to sell alcohol next to other drugs either.

    I don't see how this would work. Illegal drugs, as a whole, have their own (black market) economy. So you wouldn't see many of the potential benefits if you only temporarily legalized something like cocaine. Gangs and cartels would still be involved in the trafficking of other drugs. And would legitimate businesses be started for something that is only temporary?
    I think it'd be better than nothing. Yeah, drug cartels will go on the way they always have. So focus on cocaine. If people are buying it illegally still, or if they go and openly purchase it.. See how many cocaine users go into rehab while its legal, statistics about cocaine would be an indication of the future to come, imo. I think pot should go through a probationary period as well. I think it would get more voters to say "Well, I dont like it too much but I don't really care either so yeah lets see if the world collapses or not". In my eyes, I wouldn't have any leg to stand on if education of cocaine became stronger, rehab centers were getting funding, the product was self-sustaining, etc.

    More pros than cons generally sway people. I'm not a grump that refuses to be wrong, but I want to see how well it works. Probationary periods are good ways to show things that we can only speculate on now.

    And since it is only speculation.. my personal bias has just as much ground as your hypothesis.

    As a side note, last time I checked roofies were a sort of drug. I don't know how comfortable I'd be with having those widely and legally available for any sleezebag with 20 bucks to grab.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  7. #307
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think something you anti-drug people may be forgetting here is that certain drugs always seem to lead to terrible consequence because you only hear about the ones that go badly.

    Drug use is much more widespread than you may think; the successful doctor who does coke on the weekends isn't going to run around broadcasting it. You don't hear about these because the people involved are responsible enough to use the drugs in moderation.

    The cases you hear about through the grapevine where some idiot pawned everything he owned for more crack are actually not that common relative to the unknown cases where nothing serious goes wrong; they're just the ones that get media attention.
    Wow. Way to reduce the loved ones people have lost to drugs as 'some idiot'. Yes, it's us that live in a sheltered bubble, not you at all. All druggies are responsible people, except the ones that aren't, and I'm sure they're way far away and just there to give the media something to talk about.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  8. #308
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Wow. Way to reduce the loved ones people have lost to drugs as 'some idiot'. Yes, it's us that live in a sheltered bubble, not you at all. All druggies are responsible people, except the ones that aren't, and I'm sure they're way far away and just there to give the media something to talk about.

    You don't take away cherished freedoms from the general public because some people make poor decisions. We are supposed to be a society based both on individual liberty and individual responsibility.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #309
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You don't take away cherished freedoms from the general public because some people make poor decisions. We are supposed to be a society based both on individual liberty and individual responsibility.
    Last time I checked, I always had rules and regulations restricting me and stopping me from things that would be otherwise fun and harmless because one dumbass took it too far and ruined it for all of us.

    I think there are more important freedoms than the freedom to shoot up...To me, alcohol is a privilage, not a right. Just like driving and many other things people think they have rights to. Privilages are easily taken away if abused.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #310
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Wow. Way to reduce the loved ones people have lost to drugs as 'some idiot'. Yes, it's us that live in a sheltered bubble, not you at all. All druggies are responsible people, except the ones that aren't, and I'm sure they're way far away and just there to give the media something to talk about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I know people in real life, you know? I'm not living in a drug sheltered bubble where I get all my information from the media or something.
    I'm sure you do, and I don't mean to reduce the emotional impact of those tragic situations.

    But the fact is you're making a mistake by considering those cases as representative of a majority of drug users. The point is not "haha your loved ones are morons"; it's, "you have an exaggerated idea of the frequency of drug use ending in tragedy because you don't hear about the cases that don't ruin lives."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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