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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Maybe.

    But I would not rate fight against production of opium in Afghansitan as a police action.
    It's interesting, as Afghanistan provides most of the world's illegal heroin.

    Here in Tasmania we also grow extensive poppy fields and provide the world with legal and safe narcotics.

    So it seems a small step to me to buy the whole Afghan crop and take the profits out of the hands of the Taliban.

  2. #262
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So it seems a small step to me to buy the whole Afghan crop and take the profits out of the hands of the Taliban.
    Since when has the Taliban been profiting off the drug trade? Before the US invasion, Afghanistan was exporting virtually no drugs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #263
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, the opposite is true. By making it illegal, we give up control. Instead of being able to mandate when, where, and to who drugs can be sold, we leave those decisions entirely in the hands of dealers.
    I don't think that's true at all. People try to get around cigarettes being taxed all time via Canada, etc. People will still be able to get drugs illegally, regardless of ending prohibition. We don't hand over drugs to drug dealers. We condemn those that deal drugs and everyone that uses them, punishable by jailtime, fines, etc. We can't watch everyone all the time, people always get away with things, but that's not the same as giving up control.

    Thats like saying "We condemn all stealing as illegal. So we just gave up stealing to thieves and lost control of stealing entirely."

    They don't do it because they're law breakers. They do it because there's so much profit potential. Think about how that lures minorities into dealing and the effect the drug war has had on blacks for the last 30-40 years.
    No one, I don't think, breaks the law just to do it. Everyone's got a motive that, to them, outweighs the law. A drug dealer is still a law breaker even if he did it for money, just like a rapist is still a rapist even though he raped his wife.

    I don't think it will be easy, but we'll never make any progress under the current system. The number of smokers has been falling, not because we hold a gun to their heads and tell them to quit, but because of education. Think about this.
    You're right here, just like lots of promotion for fatness will start people eating better. It's pretty good system there.. but saying "drugs are bad for you, stop them plz!" and then making all drugs legal? Sorta takes the education steps backwards, doesn't it?

    I suppose you don't need statistics if your making an emotional argument.
    You're telling me more kids do X, meth, heroine, etc. than alcohol or cigarettes? Because I was a kid, and everyone I knew.. yeah, an occasional bar, or X pill... alcohol was the main source of 'illegal' drug to do. Cigarettes a close second. I think they do alcohol and cigarettes because they're easy to access. It's not an illegal drug possession AND a minor possession.. just the latter. Thus, 'safer'.

    So Beat says that anyone in favor of legalization must be a user. And you say anyone who is in favor must not have seen the effects of addiction?
    I am saying anyone in favor of seeing meth legal and easy-access probably didn't lose someone close to them with it. I can't imagine someone saying, "My mom died by overdosing on meth. .. but it's legal, and I'm smarter than she was, so I'll be fine using it." I'm not saying they won't support the legalization of what other people do, but I don't see that person saying drugs are a-okay in their eyes. If they are.. then I can confidently say I have nothing to say to that. I don't do pot, but I support the legalization of it.. If you ever ask me about drugs though, I'll tell you I think they're all evil. I say that because I lost a friend growing up to them. I couldn't even talk to them, and eventually couldn't even risk being around them.

    It's a sad process to see someone degrade, and never know they're degrading at all. It's the same with alcohol or anything else, I don't approve of any drugs at all, and I'm sorry, no argument you make will change my mind of that. If someone wants to do meth, they'll have to just be a law breaker. I don't want a legal meth head being my accountant, I don't want a dope fiend legally being able to run my bank.

    Pot aside, I don't think ALL drugs have a place in our system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I've lost a loved one to alcoholism. I'm not in favor of a return to prohibition, though.
    Either am I. But honestly, how much could anyone regulate the amount of alcohol they bought? If the amount of alcohol was regulated, they'd have found illegal ways to get more than the legal amount.. .. I can't see heroine being well controlled by any government system when alcohol and cigarettes can by bought by the thousands of dollars at a time.
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  4. #264
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    How about those of you in support of ALL drugs being legal show me how you envision the system? What drugs are legal in your eyes, how are they distrubuted, what sort of taxes are on them, and how do people get them? Are there monthly quotas you can buy? Restrictions of age, disabilities, limitations?

    Show me the system you think will work. Right now I'm envisioning chaos. I admit I don't like drugs, but I am always willing to listen to the other side. So give me what you're looking at so I can see it from your shoes.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    How about those of you in support of ALL drugs being legal show me how you envision the system? What drugs are legal in your eyes, how are they distrubuted, what sort of taxes are on them, and how do people get them? Are there monthly quotas you can buy? Restrictions of age, disabilities, limitations?
    We grow extensive fields of heroin poppies legally and safely. And we legally and safely supply the world with narcotics.

    We are a stable, first world, Common Law country. So if you want to know how it is done, come and talk to us.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Since when has the Taliban been profiting off the drug trade? Before the US invasion, Afghanistan was exporting virtually no drugs.
    Today poppies are grown under the protection of the Taliban. And naturally they receive substantial protection money which is spent on materiel, guns and bombs which they direct at our troops.

    We would prefer you abandon your war on drugs in Afghanistan and buy their whole crop.

  7. #267
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Is the government the supplier for alcohol or tobacco? What does this statement even mean?

    For those of us in favor of legalization, the government's role would be to ensure safety and provide information. Its role would be identical to the role it already holds with other "controlled", addictive, or harmful substances. Regulation is not the same as distribution.
    Through taxation, the government is involved.

    How does one use Heroin moderately or safely? Seriously. You can't put drugs like that on the same level as tobacco or alcohol. Consuming alcohol responsibly is easy to do and is cautioned on all supplier's advertisements. Smoking a cigar or a few cigarettes a day is hardly worth concern. With those substances, there is a clear line and it's not hard to adhere to the responsible side. Heroin (I use this drug as an example, as we know there are countless others) is good for nothing but completely altering someone's state of mind.

  8. #268
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Through taxation, the government is involved.

    How does one use Heroin moderately or safely? Seriously. You can't put drugs like that on the same level as tobacco or alcohol. Consuming alcohol responsibly is easy to do and is cautioned on all supplier's advertisements. Smoking a cigar or a few cigarettes a day is hardly worth concern. Heroin (I use this drug as an example, as we know there are countless others) is good for nothing but completely altering someone's state of mind.
    The debate seems to be that people who support legalization are annoyed by our bias against drugs.

    Whereas, we're saying, "Look, people are dumb and it's common sense" instead of giving the druggies the benefit of the doubt.

    I don't know where to draw the personal bias line on this subject, but I do not feel wrong applying my personal bias to this subject even though it effects a mass of people. Im sure there are people who will use these drugs the way adults would use any other substance.. but I cannot help but focus on the countless of people who have destroyed themselves on drugs, and that's with the illegal stipulation on them already. Legalizing something means it is okay to do in America. I do not think it's 'okay' to say "Use whatever substance you want." I don't think it's okay to legalize something that's destroyed so many lives just because the 'responsible' people want something for themselves. It's a selfish bias.

    Both sides are using bias in the debate, but how we're applying it is different.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  9. #269
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We grow extensive fields of heroin poppies legally and safely. And we legally and safely supply the world with narcotics.

    We are a stable, first world, Common Law country. So if you want to know how it is done, come and talk to us.
    Do you use heroine? Are there people you know that use heroine? Do they use it responsibly? Because I know people who drink alcohol and not even they drink it the way it's recommended, and I would consider some of my friends alcoholics to boot.

    I could understand this argument on pot.. but the rest of it? There are pills that can kill you after taking them once. Once! Making those legal? You've got to be kidding me, people would be suing the manufacturers so fast they'll shut down before the sign ever got put up. Does Australia sue nearly as much as we do in the US?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #270
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Word, kyuuei.

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