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  1. #251
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    (Disclaimer: I haven't read all 248 posts in the thread previous to this one; I'm just responding to the last few posts and especially Beat's)

    There pretty much already is a non-regulated free-for-all drug market. It's just illegal. I don't think decriminalization/legalization would result in hoards more people becoming addicted or dependent on hard drugs. IMO, most people who would do drugs already do them.

    Before I worked with the Census, I had no idea how common things like meth labs and pot growers were in my own backyard. (Not literally my own backyard, don't go turning me in, guys!)
    I think you're right in the fact that most people who use drugs, they're going to use regardless of legal/illegal status. However, if it's merely a matter of showing a picture ID at a drug store and I can get painkillers, opiates or whatever other nonsense... How easy and accessible does that make it for the ordinary Joe who typically wouldn't use drugs, to decide to hit up the drug shop on a bad day in attempts to settle the nerves? Then a few years down the line he's the one checking into rehab on the dime of our tax dollar. You can't condone drug usage and then work against it.

  2. #252
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    McDonald's doesn't drastically alter your brain chemistry, yo. Stories of people brutally butchering their family members while suffering hallucinations under the influence of Methamphetamine and like drugs is not totally uncommon. The most I've wanted to do at McDonalds is punch Ronald McDonald for looking at me funny... and temptation to regurgitate that rank food. lol
    People don't need meth to butcher their family.

    Police: NY man bought knife after killing family - Boston.com

    Actually, we hear more stories about people like Andrea Yates. We better outlaw religion, right?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #253
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I think you're right in the fact that most people who use drugs, they're going to use regardless of legal/illegal status. However, if it's merely a matter of showing a picture ID at a drug store and I can get painkillers, opiates or whatever other nonsense... How easy and accessible does that make it for the ordinary Joe who typically wouldn't use drugs, to decide to hit up the drug shop on a bad day in attempts to settle the nerves? Then a few years down the line he's the one checking into rehab on the dime of our tax dollar. You can't condone drug usage and then work against it.
    What would keep you from doing that?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #254
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    So I used an extreme example but even you admitted it does happen... My ex girlfriend was suffering bad hallucinations and was close to killing her self during a bad trip a couple of years ago. Drugs aren't McDonald's... Heroin isn't a trinket you get in a happy meal. Why that comparison is even being made in here, I have no idea.

    Imagine how that number of deaths due to adverse reactions to prescribed drugs would change if the drugs were free game, with no doctors to determine what drugs do/don't work for an individual, as well as which drugs would conflict? A non-regulated, free for all drug market is simply retarded.
    No one is arguing for a non-regulated drug market. Black markets are unregulated, by definition. If drugs were legalized, they could be regulated like tobacco, alcohol, and prescription drugs.

    Is this your typical debate strategy?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #255
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think the control is in the fact that it's frikken illegal in the first place.
    Actually, the opposite is true. By making it illegal, we give up control. Instead of being able to mandate when, where, and to who drugs can be sold, we leave those decisions entirely in the hands of dealers.

    People who are smuggling it in and doing it regardless are law breakers.
    They don't do it because they're law breakers. They do it because there's so much profit potential. Think about how that lures minorities into dealing and the effect the drug war has had on blacks for the last 30-40 years.

    It's not a perfect system, but nothing is perfect, and using alcohol and cigarettes as a guideline I think it's safe to say the amount of access and how out of control people become can become a real nightmare.
    I don't think it will be easy, but we'll never make any progress under the current system. The number of smokers has been falling, not because we hold a gun to their heads and tell them to quit, but because of education. Think about this.

    And of COURSE, drug dealers sell to kids, fuck dude try and be a bit more haughty about that remark would ya please? But the amount of consumption kids have with alcohol and cigarettes compared to other drugs.. I don't have statistics, but I don't think I need them.
    I suppose you don't need statistics if your making an emotional argument.

    Anyone who supports the legalization of ALL drugs has never lost anyone to a substance, imo. I don't know how anyone can say "Well.. they were a dumbass, but I will be entirely in control. Miss ya mom."
    So Beat says that anyone in favor of legalization must be a user. And you say anyone who is in favor must not have seen the effects of addiction?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #256
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I've lost a loved one to alcoholism. I'm not in favor of a return to prohibition, though.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #257
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I think that we have managed to establish groups that are for prohibition and who is agianst it.



    But I have a question for those who are against legalization of drugs.

    What mechanisms, plans and actions should/must be made to insure the defeat of "drugs" in the war against drugs ?



    For those who did not go through my post in this thread: I am clearly against legalization of drugs.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Decriminalization only works on the grounds that the government were to get involved in being a supplier. Is it really plausible to believe that America would be ok with a pharmacutical company opening it's doors to basically anyone that has a driver's license? I know we're running in circles here, but it seems like there's only opposition to my stance. Am I seriously the only one?

    Is the government the supplier for alcohol or tobacco? What does this statement even mean?

    For those of us in favor of legalization, the government's role would be to ensure safety and provide information. Its role would be identical to the role it already holds with other "controlled", addictive, or harmful substances. Regulation is not the same as distribution.

  9. #259
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    What mechanisms, plans and actions should/must be made to insure the defeat of "drugs" in the war against drugs ?
    It is not a war, it is a police action.

    So the defeat of drugs is not on the agenda, drugs are simply policed.

  10. #260
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is not a war, it is a police action.

    So the defeat of drugs is not on the agenda, drugs are simply policed.
    Maybe.

    But I would not rate fight against production of opium in Afghansitan as a police action.

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