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  1. #231
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Who controls it now?

    I guess it's a good thing dealers don't sell drugs to kids anymore.
    I think the control is in the fact that it's frikken illegal in the first place. People who are smuggling it in and doing it regardless are law breakers. It's not a perfect system, but nothing is perfect, and using alcohol and cigarettes as a guideline I think it's safe to say the amount of access and how out of control people become can become a real nightmare.

    And of COURSE, drug dealers sell to kids, fuck dude try and be a bit more haughty about that remark would ya please? But the amount of consumption kids have with alcohol and cigarettes compared to other drugs.. I don't have statistics, but I don't think I need them.

    I exclude pot from this conversation entirely, because I've already stated in this thread that I think we will see pot legalized sometime in the future. I think it's unavoidable.

    Anyone who supports the legalization of ALL drugs has never lost anyone to a substance, imo. I don't know how anyone can say "Well.. they were a dumbass, but I will be entirely in control. Miss ya mom."
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  2. #232
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Legalize drugs! It'd be like Survival of the Fittest all over again! Like re-instating the conditions of the natural world.

    Tax the hell out of the stuff, and you'll never have to worry about saving SS or any other governmental program ever again!

    Easier to regulate.

    Even better, lock all these guys up in a state and watch them deal with each other. You could broadcast it on Pay per view and call it Survival Game or something.

    Nah, all kidding aside, hell if I know. I should not even comment because the only drugs I've ever tried are caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine, the latter two of which I'm allergic to. So I just drink caffeine. I wouldn't want to know what other drugs would do to me since I'm allergic to alcohol and nicotine!!!
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  3. #233
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Since when have you seen an addict use "balance"? That's the problem, besides controlled medicinal situations; heavy drugs are good for nothing but addiction. Some people will lightly experiment and escape unscathed, big whoop. Addiction is very real and too much of a risk. It's all about weighing the pros and the cons of the situation. The government doesn't give a damn if you had a good time at the party. It is however taxed when it has to pick bodies up off the street, answer calls of people being delirious and out of their mind and causing problems and treating people for medical problems tied to drug usage and addiction.

    The only people I see that are adamant on legalization are the ones that want to use. If someone wants something, they'll find any reasoning and justifcation they can contrive to make a point. It's not even rational. For your ordinary, non drug using citizen, I highly doubt you're going to hear them complaining about the police still making drug arrests, despite the fact that it costs money. Want to talk conservation of money? How about all the other BS programs out their that are draining our tax dollars?
    Are all users addicts? That seems to be your thesis. We can follow your logic and say that guns are good for nothing but killing people and so that people that shoot guns simply want to kill people.

    or that some members of the military enlist just to kill people, despite others having other reasons for joining. We could a long time about how much the military drains the american taxpayers. Other potential bs programs do not however tear families apart, or destroy so many innocent people.

  4. #234
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ Last time I checked, people don't create laws to help keep people already in good healthy balances in check. Rules generally get created as reactions to people who go overboard and spoil it for the rest of people.

    Leaving out the addicts in your argument and basing it on just the 'healthy' drug users would only be looking at half of a convenient coin.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  5. #235
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    One idea is that black markets can be combatted in ways much more efficient than now. Another idea, probably more interesting, is that people will not necessarily want things so much, all the time. I'm personally interested in looking into what motivates people to take drugs, so as influence the sources of those motives for the purpose of stopping drug use. Of course there will always be drugs users, but I think it can be heavily reduced.
    When you come up with a solution to the looming black market problem, let me know. I'm all ears.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's little consolation if they thought wrong.
    You still don't seem to want to acknowledge that they might not actually be wrong if their value system doesn't include making every possible effort to preserve good health. They're making the same kind of decision that someone makes every time he chooses to eat at McDonald's--but we don't forcibly remove the right of people to choose to eat at McDonald's, despite knowing how unhealthy it is. I'm not arguing that drug use can't be extremely unhealthy; I'm arguing that adults in a free society have a right to knowingly make unhealthy choices for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I know people with this stance always use the prohibition era in their defense, but it can be used against them too, to an extent. I will not speak of places like Mexico, but I know in the USA death from alcohol is higher even if you do factor in crime related deaths. We must ask, if you let someting be legal, and allow its prices to drop to their naturally low levels, does root itself into the society and expand, and become a serious problem in its own right? In a philosophically ideal world, I would want there to be no alcohol. I have no respect for it. But, I have not yet decided what I want to do about it in the real world, because it is very complicated.
    Drugs have rooted themselves into society for thousands of years and they'll never stop. As long as people have enough freedom to produce and consume them with some degree of secrecy, they will be there.

    Philosophically pure? You sound like Plato. I think you need to stop projecting your personal views of drugs and morality on society as a whole without any real reason beyond "I think it's bad and I can prove that it's unhealthy." Again, people can and do knowingly make unhealthy decisions. We can't run around banning everything potentially harmful "for the people's own good" because we're in denial about the fact that some people want to make unhealthy decisions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, I know they aren't good for most other people. I've never even taken drugs, I'm not at all attempting to use my own experiences for this. I am instead observing the pattern I have seen in drugs users. It can be from people I personally know, but also material I have read on the matter. People clearly harm themselves, not just physically, but psychologically, in ways they did not want or intend. the odds of this may be different depending on the drug used, but some drugs just seem to have a near guaranteed catalog of regrets.
    McDonald's isn't good for anyone; should we ban that as well?

    How far do we go in this valiant attempt to stop people from hurting themselves psychologically? We'd better look into banning a lot more things that could potentially make people depressed. Watch out, depressing art! It's government-imposed happiness time!



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Psychological research shows a remarkable correlation between Hedonism and depression (wish I had links, but I've actually gotten my information in paper format here). It's generally assume that they both enforce each other, and you get a spiral. I do think most people don't really know what they're getting into with a hedonistic lifestyle, or that they don't realize better options (that is, some know what they are getting into, but do it because they think it's the best thing they've got). I'm not really talking about physical health then, I am saying hedonists suffer psychologicall most of the time. Yes, I am being probablistic, but why not? We are talking about law and all of society, it's not something one can guide at a case study level, and shape in it entirety based on exceptions to the rule. We are all one species, and there's actually not a hell of a lot of difference between two specimens of one species. Science is increasingly demystifying psychology and uncovering genuine patterns in human behavior. Now you don't have to tell me about all the pitfalls of this approach to psychology, I am aware of them... But I do believe that while has the potentialy to go wrong, it is rooted in fundamental truth. I think, there is a limit to human uniquity, even if that creeps you out.

    I want to throw something that also undermines the basis of most of this chain of discussion, which Haphazard mentioned. Justifying drug use by saying "it's my life, my body" is disengenuous. The effects of people being ravaged and killed drugs definitely bleeds onto the people around them. Drug users are not islands.
    But not everyone who uses drugs is "ravaged and killed." I know lots of people who indulge in a few illegal drugs in their spare time, but still maintain full time jobs, families and overall reasonably good health.

    Can we at least agree that marijuana, which has killed zero people in the history of the world, should be legal? If your argument rests on the idea that drugs should be illegal because they're addictive and dangerous to one's health, then let's remove marijuana from that category, shall we?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #236
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think the control is in the fact that it's frikken illegal in the first place. People who are smuggling it in and doing it regardless are law breakers. It's not a perfect system, but nothing is perfect, and using alcohol and cigarettes as a guideline I think it's safe to say the amount of access and how out of control people become can become a real nightmare.

    And of COURSE, drug dealers sell to kids, fuck dude try and be a bit more haughty about that remark would ya please? But the amount of consumption kids have with alcohol and cigarettes compared to other drugs.. I don't have statistics, but I don't think I need them.

    I exclude pot from this conversation entirely, because I've already stated in this thread that I think we will see pot legalized sometime in the future. I think it's unavoidable.

    Anyone who supports the legalization of ALL drugs has never lost anyone to a substance, imo. I don't know how anyone can say "Well.. they were a dumbass, but I will be entirely in control. Miss ya mom."

    I support full legalization of weed and at least decriminalization of hard drugs, and I know people who have died of drug overdoses or suicide related to kicking drugs, and people who just straight up ruined their lives. The fact that some people get way too hung up on drugs is not even close to compelling enough reason to arrest nonviolent drug users, shoot innocent people, etc.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #237
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    There is a difference between nacrotics and drugs
    Narcotic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    nacrotics fuck up the human biochemistry, while drugs do not.

    As for freewill, you already lost it when you are enslaved by the drug.
    Macdonald's is not drugs, you don't get addicted to MacDonalds.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  8. #238
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Really? Tell that to this kid.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #239
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    The drug war is flawed, as is the justice system as a whole. Legalization of drugs is not a healthy nor beneficial solution, period.

  10. #240
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    well, there is difference between fat and addicted to heroin.

    you can die from eating macdonalds everyday, but how likely is that?
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

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