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  1. #181
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Absolute freedom doesn't exist because everything we do impacts others. It isn't just about violence done to others - the legal framework allows lies, sometimes, but not in contract. It's arbitrary. Creating a legal market for dangerous goods doesn't make things better for the individuals, contrary to popular belief. It's like restricting poisons - large scale versions. Or explosives. Hell, take it to an extreme, like nuclear weapons. It's always going to be a matter of degree. All of the arbitrary prevention laws are similar in this regard.

    Keep in mind that I'm laughing at the blanket statements and feel good ideology. I'm no fan of the current schedule of drugs, or the criminalization of the general populace.
    Yes, when two rights conflict we must choose the one of greater importance. You're right that the line is drawn somewhat arbitrarily, but I don't think you can place things like nuclear weapons on the same side of that line as say, marijuana. Let's look at the key differences:

    --Allowing citizens to own nuclear arms would obviously be an enormous threat to national security (again freedom is the default but security becomes an overriding concern here)
    --Marijuana can be produced with relative ease and secrecy, thus inevitably creating a black market for it (since it's so easy to produce and distribute, the only way to prevent this is restricting all social freedom to a level that almost no one would consider acceptable)
    --Marijuana poses no such security risk.

    So it seems to me that you'd need to show that marijuana (or other drugs) produce an unacceptable security and/or health risk to people who choose to remain uninvolved with them...otherwise, my personal freedom to regulate my own body should take precedence.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #182
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You're right that the line is drawn somewhat arbitrarily, but I don't think you can place things like nuclear weapons on the same side of that line as say, marijuana.
    Taking two extremes out of my argument doesn't seem very fair, especially since I noted that I don't support the current schedule of drugs and stated I was laughing at the blanket "everything should be legal" attitude. I am not stating they are equivalent - I am laughing at the ideology.

    Having worked with the effects left from the hard drugs, I know there are plenty that shouldn't be made legal and accessible.

  3. #183
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    Personal experience: drugs nearly ruined my life, and they ruin uncountable lives per year.
    Thats why they should stay illegal. They're outlawed for a reason.

    Tobacco and Alcohol got a free ride since they helped found this country, unfortunately, or else they'd be illegal too.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  4. #184
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Taking two extremes out of my argument doesn't seem very fair, especially since I noted that I don't support the current schedule of drugs and stated I was laughing at the blanket "everything should be legal" attitude. I am not stating they are equivalent - I am laughing at the ideology.

    Having worked with the effects left from the hard drugs, I know there are plenty that shouldn't be made legal and accessible.

    I was a hard drug user for a long time, and I know people who have ruined their lives on them, and I STILL think that they should be legal.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #185
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    The pattern I see is that the naysayers in this thread take their arguments to the furthest proportions (to the point of absurdity) and wind up comparing apples to oranges.

    "Smashing babies to death on the sidewalk is immoral."
    "What do you think would happen if we had no laws at all?"
    "What if we let individuals own nuclear arms?"
    "What would George Washington and Thomas Jefferson do if their neighborhoods were infested with Crack dealers?"

    There is a complete lack of appeal to rationality here. What can you say, with at least a modicum of certainty, would be the negative effects of legalizing drugs? I can easily list some definite benefits of legalization:

    To name a few...

    It is certain that drugs will be standardized and users will be more aware of what they are getting.
    It is certain that organized crime and will lose a major feeding source.
    It is certain that victimless drug crimes will cease to be punished.
    It is certain that laws do not stop people from doing drugs.

    What certainties can you offer about the legalization of drugs that support your case, rather than a bunch of "mights"? Oh, society as a whole might become addicted to drugs. Oh, the "morality" of our nation might fall apart.

    So what? Everything has its "mights". America has nuclear weapons, and those might be used in a war and put the world into nuclear winter. The terrorists might attack us if we pull out of Iraq. A woman might be doing the wrong thing in getting an abortion.

    I could just as easily spout things like "drugs might make the world a happier place" and "people might become more open minded and accepting of each other." I'd love to think those things, but there is no way that I can prove them so I refuse, nay, don't even feel tempted to argue with them.

    Appeal to my reason, not my imagination. What bad things will definitely happen, that don't already happen because of the ineffectiveness of current laws, as a result of drug decriminalization.

  6. #186
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clownmaster View Post
    Personal experience: drugs nearly ruined my life, and they ruin uncountable lives per year.
    Thats why they should stay illegal. They're outlawed for a reason.

    Tobacco and Alcohol got a free ride since they helped found this country, unfortunately, or else they'd be illegal too.
    So? They nearly ruined your life and they are fucking illegal. Goes to show that illegality didn't work. They would have done the same had they been legal. Or maybe they wouldn't have! You can't prove it.

  7. #187
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I was a hard drug user for a long time, and I know people who have ruined their lives on them, and I STILL think that they should be legal.
    Yeah, I know some sad stories but really...why should we take away people's freedom?

    For me it's as simple as, if it's something that directly affects others in a blatantly harmful way it should be banned. If not then why should it?

    So many people die from nicotine (for example) in the long run. We don't ban it and I think for a good reason. It would be immoral to do so. Smoking in public places....that's another scenario. A different one which is covered by the law.

  8. #188
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yeah, I know some sad stories but really...why should we take away people's freedom?

    For me it's as simple as, if it's something that directly affects others in a blatantly harmful way it should be banned. If not then why should it?

    So many people die from nicotine (for example) in the long run. We don't ban it and I think for a good reason. It would be immoral to do so. Smoking in public places....that's another scenario. A different one which is covered by the law.

    The fact that even ONE innocent person has been killed by the police over marijuana should be enough to convince people that this War on Drugs is a national disgrace. And the fact that real criminals go free early because half of the inmates in them are nonviolent drug offenders just burns my ass.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #189
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    This is a slight tangent, that is, it doesn't really have to do with the OP. It is however a little game I want to play with some of the responders here because of some logic they've been using.

    You say if it's a threat to someone else, ban it, but it's only self-threatening, don't ban it. So I propose to you a hypothetical scenario (don't try to dance around it, because if you do you miss the point and get an F). If something (I don't know what, it could be a cult, it could be a chemical, whatever) created an epidemic of suicide in the USA, would it be the valid and justified responsibility for law enforcement to forcibly intervene with these suicides?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #190
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Taking two extremes out of my argument doesn't seem very fair, especially since I noted that I don't support the current schedule of drugs and stated I was laughing at the blanket "everything should be legal" attitude. I am not stating they are equivalent - I am laughing at the ideology.
    Fair enough...my mistake.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Having worked with the effects left from the hard drugs, I know there are plenty that shouldn't be made legal and accessible I should avoid because I was unable to use them responsibly.
    There you go, fixed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is a slight tangent, that is, it doesn't really have to do with the OP. It is however a little game I want to play with some of the responders here because of some logic they've been using.

    You say if it's a threat to someone else, ban it, but it's only self-threatening, don't ban it. So I propose to you a hypothetical scenario (don't try to dance around it, because if you do you miss the point and get an F). If something (I don't know what, it could be a cult, it could be a chemical, whatever) created an epidemic of suicide in the USA, would it be the valid and justified responsibility for law enforcement to forcibly intervene with these suicides?
    Well, now you're getting into the question of free will. If someone invented a mind control device that actually manipulated people totally beyond their control into mass suicide, then yes, the government should intervene.

    But choosing to use dangerous substances is a personal decision. I'll even support the idea of governmental insistence that the producers of such substances be forthright in making the public aware of the potentially dangerous consequences of choosing to use them, and I absolutely support age restrictions on the sales...but if an adult actively chooses to sit at home shooting heroin all day, I don't see any reason we should be compelled to stop him.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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