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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Milk before meat is a term used to describe the process of concealing doctrine from outsiders and new inductees. Since they base themselves on principles that outsiders often find outlandish, the method is to spoon-feed doctrine to inductees rather than letting them study independently, in hopes that the extreme points of doctrine will be much more acceptable to the new believer after a period of conditioning.
    I still don't get the point of doing that. Why would I care if you or anyone accepts my beliefs?

    Do you teach algebra before addition? Is there a certain order to the doctrine that we teach? Yes... because it makes sense to teach it that way, silly.

    I was surprised - I thought I had read all the anti-Mormon literature out there, but I don't remember "lying for the lord"... either it's new or I missed it. However, in my experience, I also know that there's often a huge difference between what I believe and what other people (like you, Feisty Falicia) claim I believe.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    "milk before meat" refers to a passage in one of Paul's letters to the church at Corinth:

    AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)

    He means that spiritually we are the same as we are physically -- we drink milk before we take solid food -- you can't give infants meat -- they can't digest it -- meat could harm them.
    Thank you for the explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    If the intention of the baptisms is for people to know Jesus Christ why does the church baptize people that are already Christian? It wouldn't happen to be because you guys believe yourselves to be the one true religion, and you want to give everyone the chance to enter your version of heaven?
    Actually... that's exactly right. Wow, Feisty Falicia, I'm impressed. You got one! (Although... honestly, I kinda think I gave you that one. I kind of outlined that in my original "baptisms for the dead" post.)

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The Jews and the Vatican specifically asked that their dead be left alone. When you violate that agreement, it's disrespectful.
    Dude, we're not grave robbers.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Lying for the lord is in action right now. You know your beliefs would put off most people. So, you wait until after they've been around for a long time to introduce the stranger ones.

    My best friend left the church specifically because of that practice. He was a missionary, and he felt morally wrong for having deceived people. I'm friends with other mormons that have also gone on missions. You won't fool me.
    No one is trying to convert you, dude. It's okay.

    PS - Do you live in Utah?

  4. #84
    Senior Member Sacrator's Avatar
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    I know a person who says his entire life he spent assassinating big Mormons from the US government i don't know if its true though. But it wouldn't surprise me if he/she did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    I'm sorry... this might sound a little dumb, especially if this is common knowledge among most people, but I have no idea what "milk before meat" means.

    And I was a missionary. I don't recall misleading anyone about anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Do you teach algebra before addition? Is there a certain order to the doctrine that we teach? Yes... because it makes sense to teach it that way, silly.
    What's that? A direct contradiction.

    You mormons are fond of calling religious conversion akin to marriage. If it's that serious of a commitment, people need to know exactly what they're getting into. Anything less than full disclosure is a deception. Yes, you did mislead. People were under the impression that what you guys teach before baptism is all they need to know about the entirety of mormon beliefs when that's not true. Anytime deception (lying/withholding/omitting) has to be used, something in the milk isn't clean.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Baptism is an ordinance smbolic of taking on the name of Christ as their savior.

    Rather than condemn those who have never heard of Christ or otherwise have not had the opportunity to be baptised, the church performs proxy baptisms on behalf of the deceased. (All deceased... not just the Jewish holocaust survivors - that's why geneology is so important to the LDS faith.) It is believed that the souls of the deceased will have the opportunity to accept or reject baptisms done on their behalf in the spirit world. (So no, these are not counted as "Mormons".)
    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    If the intention of the baptisms is for people to know Jesus Christ why does the church baptize people that are already Christian? It wouldn't happen to be because you guys believe yourselves to be the one true religion, and you want to give everyone the chance to enter your version of heaven?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Actually... that's exactly right. Wow, Feisty Falicia, I'm impressed. You got one! (Although... honestly, I kinda think I gave you that one. I kind of outlined that in my original "baptisms for the dead" post.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    no one is forcing anyone to become a Mormon.
    Not counted as mormons in your registry, but definitely baptized so they can go to the mormon version of heaven as opposed to hell (or wherever) with all the other poor sods. Technically, if they accept, they would be mormons. It is coercion on behalf of LDS, since you don't believe any other pleasant alternative exists after death. Most people aren't going to pick the negative place for a soul to reside. Your church does this practice believing that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you here... no one is trying to disrespect anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Dude, we're not grave robbers.
    Yeah, because it would actually take grave robbing before it could be considered offensive. Especially since, religious freedom allows you to practice at all. Even though you can't respect other religions enough to allow them to rest in peace as is.



    This thread has never truly been about mormon beliefs. Everyone should be able to practice what they like as long as it doesn't hurt, manipulate, or exploit anyone else. What I'm referring to, is the shady operations of LDS as an institution. Not the individual members.
    Last edited by 01011010; 10-02-2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason: misspelling

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    What's that? A direct contradiction.
    Umm... you lost me again. If I have an organized presentation, does that somehow mean that I'm misleading my audienence? I don't think so.

    And I still don't understand what the motivation would be for the church to mislead people. What would be the point of converting people who don't believe? I don't see where you've ever really answered that question.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    You mormons are fond of calling religious conversion akin to marriage. If it's that serious of a commitment, people need to know exactly what they're getting into. Anything less than full disclosure is a deception. Yes, you did mislead. People were under the impression that what you guys teach before baptism is all they need to know about the entirety of mormon beliefs when that's not true. Anytime deception (lying/withholding/omitting) has to be used, something in the milk isn't clean.
    Again, from experience, I suspect there's a large difference between what I believe and what you claim I believe. So you'll have to forgive me if I happen to leave out the things that you claim I believe and only teach what I really believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Technically, if they accept, they would be mormons.
    Yes, I guess I can't argue that. But no one is claiming that the deceased have accepted baptisms done on their behalf. I personally don't believe that religious beliefs in our life following death are going to be any more black and white than they are here.

    But these are my beliefs... I guess what I find really odd about this discussion is why you even care. I mean seriously, if you don't believe any of this stuff anyway, then why does it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It is coercion on behalf of LDS, since you don't believe any other pleasant alternative exists after death. Most people aren't going to pick the negative place for a soul to reside. Your church does this practice believing that.
    Again - going back to my previous question - if you're right and the church is totally false, then the dead won't have the option to choose to accept baptisms done on their behalf anyway and the practice would be meaningless. People not picking "the negative place for a soul to reside", as you put it, again is also contingent on my beliefs being true.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Yeah, because it would actually take grave robbing before it could be considered offensive.
    Right, and because we're not grave robbing, no one is offended by it except for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Especially since, religious freedom allows you to practice at all. Even though you can't respect other religions enough to allow them to rest in peace as is.
    How do we not allow the dead to rest in peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    This thread has never truly been about mormon beliefs. Everyone should be able to practice what they like as long as it doesn't hurt, manipulate, or exploit anyone else. What I'm referring to, is the shady operations of LDS as an institution. Not the individual members.
    I think this goes back to my original question above - what motivation would the church have to operate in a shady manner? And while you exclude the individual members of the church in this accusation, the members ARE the church. While I can't say that I have approved of the conduct of every church member (every religion has its bad seeds), I think the church and its membership as a whole is a very positive institution.

    But I still like you, and I know I haven't used very many smiley faces in this post, so here's a hug.

  7. #87
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Okay, Silence, I really do have sympathy since I am a religious person myself and I think 01 can be kind of rabidly anti-religious but I don't think you're going to get very far with this unless you are able to step outside the context of your belief system and look at things a little differently.

    I'm sorry if you are truly being sincere, but the huggy stuff really comes off as condescending and insulting in this context.

    You guys really are trying to force people to become Mormons if you are baptizing them without their consent. The fact that most non-Mormons believe it is nonsense does not alter the fact that it is, in intent, disrespectful to the beliefs of the deceased and a coercive act.

    If a group wants to be treated with respect and given liberty to honor their beliefs, then it seems reasonable that they treat others with respect and give them the liberty to honor their beliefs. Whether or not a particular belief is objectively true is irrelevant in this kind of situation because most people believe their beliefs are the true ones so my true beliefs only trump your true beliefs when it has to do with me.

    Personally, I believe in 'believer's baptism' that is, I believe that only people who have made a voluntary decision to repent and serve Jesus ought to be baptized. No infants, no dead people, and only children who are able to understand, at the very least, the rudiments of the gospel message. If you baptize anyone else, you are basically doing it for your own benefit, not theirs. I also think that people should be dunked under the water when they are baptized because that seems to be how they did it in the Bible, as far as I can tell.

    You know what, though? A lot of people don't share my beliefs and a lot of people think they are silly at best and heretical at worst. That's okay. I'm not going to haul them off to the nearest deep enough body of water and hold them under until they repent.

    Symbolically, though, that is what baptizing the dead would be the equivalent of right? The only thing that lets you get by with such a practice is that it is symbolic and most people think it's just silly. So you kind of have to chose whether you want to be taken seriously and respected (in which case people are going to have a real problem with what you're doing because it violates people's beliefs and liberty) or you want to be thought of as silly and ignored. You don't get to be taken seriously and be allowed to violate other people like that any more than I get to haul Mormons off to a lake and hold them under the water until they get saved the right way or the Catholics get to go around to all the hospitals in Salt Lake City sprinkling every infant in the neonatal unit.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You guys really are trying to force people to become Mormons if you are baptizing them without their consent. The fact that most non-Mormons believe it is nonsense does not alter the fact that it is, in intent, disrespectful to the beliefs of the deceased and a coercive act.

    If a group wants to be treated with respect and given liberty to honor their beliefs, then it seems reasonable that they treat others with respect and give them the liberty to honor their beliefs. Whether or not a particular belief is objectively true is irrelevant in this kind of situation because most people believe their beliefs are the true ones so my true beliefs only trump your true beliefs when it has to do with me.
    Okay

    I don't really know what else to say other than what's already been said.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Personally, I believe in 'believer's baptism' that is, I believe that only people who have made a voluntary decision to repent and serve Jesus ought to be baptized. No infants, no dead people, and only children who are able to understand, at the very least, the rudiments of the gospel message. If you baptize anyone else, you are basically doing it for your own benefit, not theirs. I also think that people should be dunked under the water when they are baptized because that seems to be how they did it in the Bible, as far as I can tell.
    I pretty much completely agree with this. (Accept for the "no dead people" part, as you might suspect.)

    But rather than rehash what I've already written, I want to ask you a question: How do your beliefs deal with those who have never had the opportunity to be baptised in this life? Do you personally believe that God condemns those souls to hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You know what, though? A lot of people don't share my beliefs and a lot of people think they are silly at best and heretical at worst. That's okay. I'm not going to haul them off to the nearest deep enough body of water and hold them under until they repent.

    Symbolically, though, that is what baptizing the dead would be the equivalent of right?
    No, I don't see the similitude of holding someone's head under water until they repent with baptisms for the dead. If the church taught that the deceased were forced to convert, I might see your point on this... but as I have already extensively stated, that is not the case.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Umm... you lost me again. If I have an organized presentation, does that somehow mean that I'm misleading my audienence? I don't think so.

    And I still don't understand what the motivation would be for the church to mislead people. What would be the point of converting people who don't believe? I don't see where you've ever really answered that question.
    An organized presentation, is still traditionally given all at one time.

    First you pretend not to know what milk before meat means. In another statement, you make it very clear that you not only know about it, but find it to be the only rational practice. You were caught lying a couple times in this thread. The other lie being that souls were only converted to know Jesus, even though technically they are converted to become mormons.

    I've already stated why the church does it. See my post explaining lying for the lord and milk before meat. The fact that Scientology is the only other major religion that employs this strategy says quite a bit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Again, from experience, I suspect there's a large difference between what I believe and what you claim I believe. So you'll have to forgive me if I happen to leave out the things that you claim I believe and only teach what I really believe.
    What you personally believe doesn't matter to me. I'm referencing the church's stance on conversion.

    Conversion includes a change in behavior, but it goes beyond behavior; it is a change in our very nature. It is such a significant change that the Lord and His prophets refer to it as a rebirth, a change of heart, and a baptism of fire. The Lord said:

    "Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

    "And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God" (Mosiah 27:2526).

    Conversion
    It's even deeper than marriage according to your institution. No one makes a commitment of that level, without understanding all the beliefs going into it. This practice is taking away people's free will, in the sense that you aren't presenting all the info upfront for people to make an educated decision. It might not be what someone wants to get into, but they won't know until they have already made an emotional commitment and created bonds with others in the community.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    But these are my beliefs... I guess what I find really odd about this discussion is why you even care. I mean seriously, if you don't believe any of this stuff anyway, then why does it matter?

    Again - going back to my previous question - if you're right and the church is totally false, then the dead won't have the option to choose to accept baptisms done on their behalf anyway and the practice would be meaningless. People not picking "the negative place for a soul to reside", as you put it, again is also contingent on my beliefs being true.
    I've already stated your beliefs aren't important to me. I'm more concerned about a few of the tactics LDS employs. I'm strongly against people with less critical thinking skills being hoodwinked by an organization as wealthy and powerful as yours. LDS sells a beautiful dream of the forever family, but it comes at the cost of 10% of their income. It would be strange if the motivations and strategies of the church go unquestioned since they involve manipulation.

    This is dealing with people's beliefs that can't be proven. Proof, isn't important here. The problem is that LDS believes they're right, and they force baptisms on people that haven't consented to do so. People who also deeply believe in something spiritual will find what you do offensive since it deals with converting souls into mormons, and disrespecting their personal belief system.



    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Right, and because we're not grave robbing, no one is offended by it except for you.
    The family and friends of dead Jews that continue to get converted after LDS signed an agreement to cease baptisms are outraged. Rightfully so. Now you have the Vatican on your tail. My money is on the Catholics.




    You can keep using subterfuge, but I will continue to counter you every single time.


    Subterfuge

    1 : deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
    2 : a deceptive device or stratagem

  10. #90
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    But rather than rehash what I've already written, I want to ask you a question: How do your beliefs deal with those who have never had the opportunity to be baptised in this life? Do you personally believe that God condemns those souls to hell?
    I don't think baptism is necessary for salvation, but rather an outward, symbolic statement of something that has already occurred within the person.

    The equivalent belief for me would be someone that has never heard the gospel and I have to say that I don't really know for sure how God handles that. There are verses in the Bible that seem to indicate that they are condemned and verses that seem to indicate that if people have not heard the gospel, but still choose to live according to the truth that he has put into the hearts of all mankind, he will count them among the righteous.

    How does the Mormon church select those they baptize after death?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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