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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    If they do it in private and don't actually involve the bodies of the dead people they are baptizing then I don't really see what the fuss is about. The more time they spend "baptizing" the dead, the less time they have to cause trouble for the living.
    The people making a fuss have a bone to pick with religion. Most people realize it's silly and meaningless.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    If they do it in private and don't actually involve the bodies of the dead people they are baptizing then I don't really see what the fuss is about. The more time they spend "baptizing" the dead, the less time they have to cause trouble for the living.
    See my previous post - it's done by proxy. We don't baptize dead bodies. That's a little disturbing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    It's true in this sense but do these Mormons count these "baptized" Jews as Mormons?

    That's just... no.

    Why holocaust survivors, anyway?
    Per the teachings of the church, the spirits of all those who have ever lived on the earth go to the "spirit world" upon death. This is a temporary location until the final judgment of God (where a soul's final state is thus decided).

    Baptism is an ordinance symbolic of taking on the name of Christ as their savior. Because all souls are short of the perfection necessary to dwell in the presense of God, baptism is a necessary ordinance in order to be ultimately saved during the final judgment of God. It means accepting Christ as your personal savior, but it must be performed by those having proper authority to act in the name of God.

    Baptism is an earthly ordinance - it cannot be performed in the spirit world. Rather than condemn those who have never heard of Christ or otherwise have not had the opportunity to be baptised, the church performs proxy baptisms on behalf of the deceased. (All deceased... not just the Jewish holocaust survivors - that's why geneology is so important to the LDS faith.) It is believed that the souls of the deceased will have the opportunity to accept or reject baptisms done on their behalf in the spirit world. (So no, these are not counted as "Mormons".)

  3. #63
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Mormon beliefs are bat-shit insane, should this really surprise anyone? I mean honestly, haven't you heard that their religion mandates a belief in racism? Blah blah blah Mormons. I'm gonna go watch Big Love now.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Baptism is an earthly ordinance - it cannot be performed in the spirit world. Rather than condemn those who have never heard of Christ or otherwise have not had the opportunity to be baptised, the church performs proxy baptisms on behalf of the deceased. (All deceased... not just the Jewish holocaust survivors - that's why geneology is so important to the LDS faith.) It is believed that the souls of the deceased will have the opportunity to accept or reject baptisms done on their behalf in the spirit world. (So no, these are not counted as "Mormons".)
    That's extremely condescending. As much as you guys outwardly promote acceptance, it's obvious from these baptisms that you guys have no respect for other people's religious beliefs.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Mormon beliefs are bat-shit insane, should this really surprise anyone? I mean honestly, haven't you heard that their religion mandates a belief in racism? Blah blah blah Mormons. I'm gonna go watch Big Love now.
    It's written by an ex-mormon gay couple. It's a good show, but there are inaccuracies. Like when Ronda was being taught science. Or the attempt to anyway. FLDS outlaw science. They want to keep their people as ignorant as possible.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    That's extremely condescending. As much as you guys outwardly promote acceptance, it's obvious from these baptisms that you guys have no respect for other people's religious beliefs.
    I'm not sure I follow you here... no one is trying to disrespect anyone.

    Is there anything you admire or respect about the church, or do you think it's just all bad? Where does this seeded disdain for the church come from?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    Is there anything you admire or respect about the church, or do you think it's just all bad? Where does this seeded disdain for the church come from?
    They don't recognise gay marriage.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    I'm not sure I follow you here... no one is trying to disrespect anyone.

    Is there anything you admire or respect about the church, or do you think it's just all bad? Where does this seeded disdain for the church come from?
    Would you like it if people from other religions decided to baptize the mormon dead? Would you not find it disrespectful? Especially if it left out key elements that you believe, or believed in something integral that you definitely didn't? Jews don't believe in Jesus. They died for their beliefs during the holocaust. That reason more than anything else, is why their beliefs should be respected and left alone.

    Your high and mighty saving of their souls isn't necessary. It's extremely disrespectful to think you guys are the only one with the answer, and that you must take it upon yourself to save the wretches who are too stupid or misguided to know the right way.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Would you like it if people from other religions decided to baptize the mormon dead? Would you not find it disrespectful? Especially if it left out key elements that you believe, or believed in something integral that you definitely didn't?
    If I didn't believe those other religions were true anyway, honestly... I probably wouldn't care. I probably wouldn't give it a second thought, which I guess is the reason I'm trying to understand why you're so passionate about it. In no way does the church preach that these deceased individuals have even accepted the baptism done on their behalf.

    No one is demeaning the memory of these people who died honorably for what they believe, and I have every respect for Judaism as a religion and a culture that brings people closer to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Your high and mighty saving of their souls isn't necessary. It's extremely disrespectful to think you guys are the only one with the answer, and that you must take it upon yourself to save the wretches who are too stupid or misguided to know the right way.
    I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage because I don't know what religious beliefs you have, but I would assume that you believe your religion (even if you're athiest) to be the only one with "the answer"... I guess unless you follow Hinduism or otherwise believe everybody's got it exactly right except the Mormons.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence11 View Post
    If I didn't believe those other religions were true anyway, honestly... I probably wouldn't care. I probably wouldn't give it a second thought, which I guess is the reason I'm trying to understand why you're so passionate about it. In no way does the church preach that these deceased individuals have even accepted the baptism done on their behalf.

    No one is demeaning the memory of these people who died honorably for what they believe, and I have every respect for Judaism as a religion and a culture that brings people closer to God.

    I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage because I don't know what religious beliefs you have, but I would assume that you believe your religion (even if you're athiest) to be the only one with "the answer"... I guess unless you follow Hinduism or otherwise believe everybody's got it exactly right except the Mormons.
    It doesn't matter what you think. Point is, the church believes they have the one true faith, and everyone else needs to be saved. Including other Christians. Who cares if non mormons get to make a choice in theoretical heaven about whether they accept Jesus Christ. It doesn't make it any less arrogant. Are other religions doing creepy baptisms of the deceased?

    While I think the possibility of god/afterlife written in a storybook way is unlikely to exist, I don't claim to know without a shadow of a doubt the impossible. That's the only stance I have.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It doesn't matter what you think. Point is, the church believes they have the one true faith, and everyone else needs to be saved. Including other Christians. Who cares if non mormons get to make a choice in theoretical heaven about whether they accept Jesus Christ. It doesn't make it any less arrogant. Are other religions doing creepy baptisms of the deceased?

    While I think the possibility of god/afterlife written in a storybook way is unlikely to exist, I don't claim to know without a shadow of a doubt the impossible. That's the only stance I have.
    Going off of your avatar photo... are you a girl? If you're pretty, I'm gonna be sad, cause I don't think it's going to work out between us.

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