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  1. #101
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    At least, when you're not being burnt at a stake.
    Haha. Sometimes, said newcomers are inappropriately hazed.

  2. #102
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Your belief isn't better than their belief. You are talking about knowing what is impossible to be sure of. The purpose of this thread, is to point out some of LDS's strange practices that happen to be disrespectful to anyone of a different faith, and what their motivation might be to use it.

    How do you know their way isn't right? Sure, every claim they make can be shot down with archeology, history, linguistics, and science. That isn't the point, because Christianity can be shot down for some of those reasons as well.

    Beliefs were never the crux of the issue here. It's about respecting others, and leaving them be in peace to whatever faith or non-faith they had in life.

    You're right in that it is a respect issue. My point is that whether you're coming from the perspective of a thinker who places logic and reason above faith, or from the perspective of a believer who places faith above logic and reason, neither person should be legitimately concerned or worried about the spiritual implications of them baptizing the dead. From the Christian perspective it doesn't matter because we know that baptism only affects the living, and from the secularists perspective, it doesn't matter either because you guys don't believe in spiritual stuff anyway.

    So yes, Mormons baptizing the dead is disrespectful, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be offended, but I am saying you probably shouldn't let it raise your blood pressure.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    So yes, Mormons baptizing the dead is disrespectful, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be offended, but I am saying you probably shouldn't let it raise your blood pressure.
    My main concern is Jews that died during the holocaust being baptized by Mormons. This is off limits. Also, highlighting the disrespect that Mormons have for people of other faiths is an interesting segue into their more shady practices.

    The Vatican isn't fond of what's going on either.

    In 2008, a directive from the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy directed Catholic dioceses to prevent the LDS Church from "microfilming and digitizing information" contained in Catholic sacramental registers so that those whose names were contained therein would not be subjected to vicarious Mormon baptism.

    Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  4. #104
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    From the Christian perspective it doesn't matter because we know that baptism only affects the living, and from the secularists perspective, it doesn't matter either because you guys don't believe in spiritual stuff anyway.
    i agree with the general gist (why does it matter, in terms of the practical? It can't/won't change anything), but I think it's clear that some Christians DO believe it to have an impact.

    Some Catholics do pray for the dead and have their concept of purgatory; I know Pentecostal and Holiness movement types who believe you can pray for people who have already died or gone through hard times in hopes of easing their sufferings in the past (since God is not bound by Time, is their logic); and the JW's and Church of LDS consider themselves Christians even if evangelicals don't agree, and it matters to them too.

    I also have to agree that while it does not matter in terms of efficacy, it matters in terms of boundaries of respect between people's faiths. it's a really bad "let's get along" move and coexist within the same community/country/world when one side is trying to "steal the dead" so to speak, even if it's probably bullpucky.

    But then I have to say that what else can we expect in a diverse world? We can't always make everyone stop doing things that are offensive to us, sometimes we have to just choose to ignore the things that are ultimately inconsequential or that would create other issues (and maybe worse ones) if we'd try to stamp them out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #105
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    I won't care if mormons baptise me after I'm dead. I'll be in heaven already.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    An organized presentation, is still traditionally given all at one time.
    The discussions taught by the missionaries are not done in one sitting. The church provides an organized outline, but I know from experience that the teaching process can go in very different directions based on the questions of the person/people taking the lessons.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    First you pretend not to know what milk before meat means. In another statement, you make it very clear that you not only know about it, but find it to be the only rational practice. You were caught lying a couple times in this thread. The other lie being that souls were only converted to know Jesus, even though technically they are converted to become mormons.
    Seriously... you're accusing me of lying now?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    What you personally believe doesn't matter to me. I'm referencing the church's stance on conversion.
    Since I am LDS, I'd like to think that my beliefs and the teachings of the church overlap a tiny bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It's even deeper than marriage according to your institution. No one makes a commitment of that level, without understanding all the beliefs going into it. This practice is taking away people's free will, in the sense that you aren't presenting all the info upfront for people to make an educated decision. It might not be what someone wants to get into, but they won't know until they have already made an emotional commitment and created bonds with others in the community.
    When do you truly understand something? What is a sufficient level of understanding before you can say, "I believe"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I've already stated your beliefs aren't important to me. I'm more concerned about a few of the tactics LDS employs. I'm strongly against people with less critical thinking skills being hoodwinked by an organization as wealthy and powerful as yours. LDS sells a beautiful dream of the forever family, but it comes at the cost of 10% of their income. It would be strange if the motivations and strategies of the church go unquestioned since they involve manipulation.
    You've still not given me a motive. The church doesn't have paid clergy. No one is making money off of new converts. What would be the church's motive to manipulate people?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The family and friends of dead Jews that continue to get converted after LDS signed an agreement to cease baptisms are outraged. Rightfully so. Now you have the Vatican on your tail. My money is on the Catholics.
    If I said a prayer for you in my Mormon faith, that you might one day come to believe as I do, would you be offended? Would you care? Would you even know? Would you take it as an intrusion into your life? Would you disregard it as meaningless? Would you be grateful that, despite not believing as I do, I at least cared enough about you to make that appeal?

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I talked to a mormon friend last night, he told me that even if the baptized don't accept what has been done for them, they will still be placed into one of the levels of mormon heaven. They have no choice about the matter at all. No matter how you slice it, people become mormon against their will.
    Technically, Mormons believe that EVERYONE ultimately goes to a heaven... there's just different levels of heaven. RECEIVING & ACCEPTING the ordinance of baptism is required to enter the highest kingdom. I think your statement is a bit misleading about the church's teachings.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think baptism is necessary for salvation, but rather an outward, symbolic statement of something that has already occurred within the person.

    The equivalent belief for me would be someone that has never heard the gospel and I have to say that I don't really know for sure how God handles that. There are verses in the Bible that seem to indicate that they are condemned and verses that seem to indicate that if people have not heard the gospel, but still choose to live according to the truth that he has put into the hearts of all mankind, he will count them among the righteous.
    That's a very honest answer. Thank you for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    How does the Mormon church select those they baptize after death?
    Typically the names are presented by members of the church through geneology research. I wasn't aware of the situation that the OP mentioned, but I'm not especially surprised by it.

  8. #108
    Member slant's Avatar
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    LDS....

    I live in UTAH.

    How do you think I feel?!

  9. #109
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slant View Post
    LDS....

    I live in UTAH.

    How do you think I feel?!
    Warm and sandy?
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
    Ti
    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

  10. #110
    Member slant's Avatar
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    If I had a thick rope, I might hang the president of the church.

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