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  1. #11
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Just over 2% increased volume from melting ice caps that are fully immersed in water. You can decide if that counts as negligible.
    I think we have a communication problem. I am talking only about sea ice in arctic ocean which changes its size by quite large degree as seasons cycle. But nothing happens. I am not talking about anything else.

    Greenland and Antarctic are another story.

  2. #12
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's the problem with climate... it's seriously complex. And worse, it's almost impossible to explain how trends can reverse themselves for long periods of time with the initial biases still being at play. If anything, that's what leads to catastrophic issues, because you don't prepare for something when normal deviations hide the biases, and when those biases reverse themselves, you end up with the same exponential growth that has been hidden, plus the biases.
    Really nice thought here.

    It's a tough battle. Science offers reasonable doubt as a guiding principle in understanding how things work. It doesn't pretend to have all the answers; it simply takes the time to find rationale explanations for our natural world.

    It's probably hard for some to find comfort in this approach. No real absolutes, or guarantees of outcome.

    This 'creeping uncertainty' appears to be one of many factors that irrationally transform observed clinical data into a debating chip / party platform. Easy generalizations make for ease of life. I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it. . .

    What makes this especially painful is how these generalizations can distort popular opinion and force bizarre legislation on the rest of us.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I think we have a communication problem. I am talking only about sea ice in arctic ocean which changes its size by quite large degree as seasons cycle. But nothing happens. I am not talking about anything else.
    Ah, sorry. I was talking about how any of the icecaps that are floating will end up displacing the ocean by more than 2% of their volume. It's not a huge amount, however the example of an ice cube in a glass isn't accurate - do the same experiment with an ice cube in salt water and it does change overall volume.

  4. #14
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    The southern ice sheet has been growing so I don't even know why we're discussing this. Ugh.

  5. #15
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Personally, I believe that a combination of leaving a Little Ice Age and a prevalence of greenhouse gases has raised the temperature of the Earth slightly. This could have major effects to our ecosystem a few centuries from now. I am far more concerned about how these greenhouse gases affect the air that humans and animals breathe, however. Now that I live in Southern California, it's readily apparent that the poor air quality is bad for children, the elderly, etc.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #16
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The southern ice sheet has been growing so I don't even know why we're discussing this. Ugh.
    We aren't, really. Those kinds of 'myths' was what was under discussion.
    It's under discussion because it's an interesting example of the myth of the myth that the ice is expanding. It's entirely true, as far as the literal meaning goes, but far off any accurate description of what is actually happening.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Personally, I believe that a combination of leaving a Little Ice Age and a prevalence of greenhouse gases has raised the temperature of the Earth slightly. This could have major effects to our ecosystem a few centuries from now. I am far more concerned about how these greenhouse gases affect the air that humans and animals breathe, however. Now that I live in Southern California, it's readily apparent that the poor air quality is bad for children, the elderly, etc.
    Yes, pollution is real. Man made CO2 as a major factor in the earth's climate is not. It's not. It's not. And did I remember to say that it's not? There isnt even a scientifically sound reason to back the premise that we're even helping the climate change by even the smallest margin. Maaaybe in terms of a heat island effect, but not globally due to CO2 emissions. I can't wrap my head around why people ignore so many basic facts that obviously punch major holes in the global warming mythos logic. It's as if their beliefs on global warming are the nucleus of an atom (in their mind), and it takes nothing short of a nuclear explosion to change the structure of it. Any piece of information that defies the global warming model is automatically repelled and never has a chance to touch the nucleus/your understanding of the issue.

  8. #18
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post

    The glass example is somewhat missleding.
    The reason why melting of Arctic sea ice will not change sea level are
    1. next to the surface of the oceans the surface of sea ice is small.
    2. The sheet is very very thin in comparison to its surface
    3. Plus the ice is already in water

    The difference after the melt will be negligible. But it will change wind patterns all over the world.
    I fear you are underestimating the effect of thermal expansion over large bodies of sea water.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #19
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yes, pollution is real. Man made CO2 as a major factor in the earth's climate is not. It's not. It's not. And did I remember to say that it's not? There isnt even a scientifically sound reason to back the premise that we're even helping the climate change by even the smallest margin. Maaaybe in terms of a heat island effect, but not globally due to CO2 emissions. I can't wrap my head around why people ignore so many basic facts that obviously punch major holes in the global warming mythos logic. It's as if their beliefs on global warming are the nucleus of an atom (in their mind), and it takes nothing short of a nuclear explosion to change the structure of it. Any piece of information that defies the global warming model is automatically repelled and never has a chance to touch the nucleus/your understanding of the issue.
    We share a mystified impression of the counterpoint, Risen. We agree on that much.

    Not that it will matter in terms of changing anyone's perspective, but can I ask which clinical sources you've used to arrive at the points I've highlighted in your post?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    We share a mystified impression of the counterpoint, Risen. We agree on that much.

    Not that it will matter in terms of changing anyone's perspective, but can I ask which clinical sources you've used to arrive at the points I've highlighted in your post?
    I'm not going to bother, honestly. It wont change anyone's opinion if you don't already have any understanding on the counterarguments in the scientific community. I've said a lot about it on this forum in past global warming threads, and there's been a lot more information coming out in favor of a negligible human contribution to climate change since then. It's not worth talking about again. I'll just shut up.

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