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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    By comparing their predictions to actual measurements. How else?
    So we have to wait decades?

  2. #122
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    So we have to wait decades?
    If it were up to me, but it's not. We'll start deliberately meddling with the climate before we know what we're doing and really screw things up.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If it were up to me, but it's not. We'll start deliberately meddling with the climate before we know what we're doing and really screw things up.
    That's the problem: one cannot always wait for perfect information before making a decision.

  4. #124
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If it were up to me, but it's not. We'll start deliberately meddling with the climate before we know what we're doing and really screw things up.
    Wait, isn't that what we are doing already?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    That's the problem: one cannot always wait for perfect information before making a decision.
    Its an emergency, do it now! Don't think about the consequences, just dump the iron in the ocean! Don't think, just bail out GM! Do it now!!!

    Then we get oceans overrun by plankton, killing thousands of fish and a big nationalized car company in bankruptcy.

  6. #126
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Its an emergency, do it now! Don't think about the consequences, just dump the iron in the ocean! Don't think, just bail out GM! Do it now!!!

    Then we get oceans overrun by plankton, killing thousnads of fish and a big nationalized car company in bankruptcy.
    Why do you even bother with this conversation? It's clear you haven't done your homework.

    If you disagree with Climate Change, provide source material for your findings. It's as simple as that. It doesn't have to be a confrontational exchange of heated perspective.

  7. #127
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    If you disagree with Climate Change, provide source material for your findings. It's as simple as that.
    It's not really that simple, tho. You know that both sides can link to sources, and we could all get into duelling sources. I personally have to trust that most of the people posting here, on both sides, have informed themselves to the extent that they feel comfortable making a decision on whether or not they 'believe'.

    If you disagree with Climate Change
    We in the thread also need to be careful about what we're talking about - are we talking about GW, or AGW? I personally don't "disagree" with climate change - as far as we've been able to work out, climate change has been happening for as far back as we can measure. I don't really have a problem accepting that it continues to happen.

    But AGW? Not proven yet. Imo. People can post as many satellite images and describe as many droughts as they like, it doesn't *prove* causation. Proving something is happening isn't the same as proving WHY it's happening. Even proving something is happening at the same time as another thing still isn't enough to prove they're related.

    Lateralus also makes a very good point re: climate models. Just wanted to second that.

    (Night - I used your quotes, but I'm responding to the thread, mostly)
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  8. #128
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Thank you, Kangirl.

    That is more the type of response I'd wish from him.

  9. #129
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Its an emergency, do it now! Don't think about the consequences, just dump the iron in the ocean!
    Don't you realize that's exactly what we are doing already? How can you hold both stances? We are affecting the environment but it won't do anything, but oh no, if we affect the environment then we will cause havoc.

    It just doesn't make sense to me...

    Are we, or are we not, affecting the environment on a global scale? If not, why are you worried about us reducing our 'minimal' effect? Keep in mind that active geo-engineering is at least two orders of magnitude weaker than the overall effect human are having... and that's what we can measure. Of course, the point I agree on is that as time goes on and the impact grows, the need for large scale force multipliers grows, and that's seriously dangerous.

    (Of course, I am still on the 'AGW is pretty solid' but overstated in terms of timeline, so I don't think it is a big deal. But denial, especially when it becomes institutionalized, is a serious barrier even in the long run.)

  10. #130
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Wait, isn't that what we are doing already?
    I haven't heard of it happening yet, at least not on the global scale. I haven't heard about anyone dispersing billions of tons of dust into the air to reflect solar radiation, or anything like that. But there are people who want to do that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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