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Thread: Torture

  1. #31
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Those who approve of torture as an interrogation device should be put through a few waterboarding rounds themselves.
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  2. #32
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Torture is illegal in the United States, yes. Well, Gtmo is in Cuba. So if it keeps us safe, as inhumane as it may seem, by all means... get all the info you can.

    All prisoners in Gtmo are "suspects" meaning, they are suspcious of SOMETHING. Well, that something, not matter how large or small it is, could have been aiding a criminal or defending a criminal act.

    Keep in mind the POW's are protected against inhumane treatment under the Geneva convention. However, these are not Prisoners of War. The United States Congress did not draft a Declaration of War against any currently occupied countries in which there is conflict. [Afghanistan,Iraq]

    But a signed piece of paper means nothing [ask Neville Chamberlain] regardless of what it states or declares. Actions, however, mean everything.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrME View Post
    Those who approve of torture as an interrogation device should be put through a few waterboarding rounds themselves.
    Some of us have. But i do have an alternative. Make a suspect go through relationship in america starting in somewhere around the 3rd year, and if they are guilty, make'm have to get to year 14.


    lol
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  4. #34
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I'm interested in the thoughts of people who would be willing to condone torture re: it's demonstrated lack of reliability. Under what circumstances do you think it's OK to torture someone? Would you be willing to torture a person you weren't *sure* was involved in wrongdoing on the off-chance they might be? Is the torture of innocent individuals worth the possibly infrequent results thrown up by torturing as a policy?

    I'm specifically interested in hearing how those who would support torture can defend it's not exactly reliable track record...

    I'm in also interested in the thoughts of those who oppose it straight up - would it be an easy choice to make in a position of power if torture was the only possible means of getting info out of someone (assume this someone is a known bad guy, to make the question clearer) and if this info would result in the saving of hundreds of innocent lives? Would you choose not to torture and if so, would it be an easy or a difficult decision? How would you feel if you chose not to torture and subsequently hundreds of innocent died?

    EDIT:

    All prisoners in Gtmo are "suspects" meaning, they are suspcious of SOMETHING. Well, that something, not matter how large or small it is, could have been aiding a criminal or defending a criminal act.
    This seems iffy to me - in that I'd go the opposite direction you have re: suspects. They're suspects, yes, but to me this definition means 'not yet convicted' - are you saying that it is OK to torture anyone and/or everyone in Gitmo because they *might* have been involved in criminal activities?
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  5. #35
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Hmm, there are like infinite different levels of torture.

    The effects of torture is however flawed. It is capable of driving people to extremes which may prove to be untruthful or unjust anyhow. And thus not an effective means to any end.

    But on very small levels of torture. Psychological warfare so to speak on for example a friend to friend bases, can prove to be a mind opener!
    Ie. I do not believe pain is inherently bad. In some situations it can teach. And as such, some forms of (argueably mild) 'torture' can be justified, in my opinion.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #36
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    This seems iffy to me - in that I'd go the opposite direction you have re: suspects. They're suspects, yes, but to me this definition means 'not yet convicted' - are you saying that it is OK to torture anyone and/or everyone in Gitmo because they *might* have been involved in criminal activities?
    This is only my opinion, obviously I'm not trying to impose anything. But yes, if one is placed into Gtmo, there is reason. Given the global security situation, I think circumstantial evidence is enough to convict. But again, just my opinion. :-/
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  7. #37
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrME View Post
    Those who approve of torture as an interrogation device should be put through a few waterboarding rounds themselves.
    i would waterboard someone to save your life. what would you do to save lives of your fellow countrymen? speak loudly to a suspect? deprive them of sleep so their psychological defenses weaken? remove their clothing in an effort to humiliate them? simulate the effects of drowning?

    what if you had intelligence that an attack was imminent and you had reliable evidence that your suspect was connected and could determine where and when the attack would take place? would you simply ask him politely and if he refused to disclose anything set him free? would you keep him locked in a prison? to some, prison can be torture.

    as i stated earlier in the thread i agree that once you pass a certain level of torture it becomes inhumane. before that point however, in order to save the lives of you or any other american i would employ forceful but restrained interrogation techniques that do no permanent physical damage.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  8. #38
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    We abhor violence. Yet it would be unthinkable to renounce violence as a mean to defend our values. To do so would result in a greater evil.

    Adhering to the agreement does not result in any net benefit unless the enemy reciprocates. In fact, it would give an advantage to the other side.

    Yes, but it's not because they value the infliction of suffering in itself. They simply embrace it as an effective mean to an end.
    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a means to an end. It is a statement of who we are.

    And as the first Common Law country to order torture since 1642, you have alienated your allies.

    I don't think you know how serious this is.

    This is not a practical problem. It is a moral problem.

    And it is true you are the only remaining super power, and we all know that power tends to corrupt. And so, unfortunately, you have betrayed the moral values of Western civilization - the very civilization you claim to lead.

  9. #39
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    i would waterboard someone to save your life. what would you do to save lives of your fellow countrymen? speak loudly to a suspect? deprive them of sleep so their psychological defenses weaken? remove their clothing in an effort to humiliate them? simulate the effects of drowning?

    what if you had intelligence that an attack was imminent and you had reliable evidence that your suspect was connected and could determine where and when the attack would take place? would you simply ask him politely and if he refused to disclose anything set him free? would you keep him locked in a prison? to some, prison can be torture.
    Your argument hinges on the idea that torture is reliable. You may get an occasional nugget of useful information, but the overwhelming about of information you get is going to be the victim telling you what you want to hear to make the pain stop. And if you're trying to suggest waterboarding is "torture-lite" then I invite you to be waterboarded. The whole treatment, too, not just your friends dumping water on your face.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/op...ufan.html?_r=1

    Cut from the article:
    There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.

    Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh’s capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.


    Torture for the Bush administration was tantamount to vengeance.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I want us as a country to stand up and declare that there are certain depths of depravity to which we refuse to descend, no matter the provocation.

    Sleep deprivation and relentless interrogation is as far as I'm comfortable with. Although you nearly broke me down at "what would you do to save the lives of your fellow countrymen?"

    And conversely, I'm not against war, so maybe it doesn't make sense that I don't mind if we bomb them all to hell and back but I don't want people tortured. War is honorable but torture is ... ungentlemanly.

    These are difficult questions.

    ETA: Miked277, I appreciate more than I can tell you that you would waterboard someone to save my life, as your countryman. But I would rather die than put you in that position. I realize this is an extreme view. But I agree with Victor on this one, 100 percent.

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