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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Then how do you (or he) explain Taiwan? "Chinese culture" is not a monolith, but the aspects that are held in common between the citizens of Taiwan and the People's Republic of China are apparently not a (long-term) impediment to the attainment of liberal democracy. Jackie Chan was percieved to have been commenting on Chinese people in general, not the mainland specifically.

    As for ajblaise's comments, that's the major reason the "Communist" government has stressed nationalism so much in recent years-so that the people value the unity and power of the state over all other considerations, thereby making the position of the government secure so long as economic growth continues and separatists elements are suppressed. I suspect, however, that the Chinese government (the hopes of ordinary citizens notwithstanding) won't relax its grip on power until the alternative is to lose their heads-which would require rebellion from within the military organs of the state.

    Well, dude, I don't think that i want to talke about this issue more,bc , I don't think i know lots on this ."NO experience, No talks",said by Mao.
    to.lift.the.telephone

  2. #22
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Jackie chan is an idiot. He does not represent china.

    The chinese did not prosper because of the dictatorship. They prosper in spite of the dictatorship. But I am a supporter of Mao though.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

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  3. #23
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Then how do you (or he) explain Taiwan?
    Money.

    "Chinese culture" is not a monolith, but the aspects that are held in common between the citizens of Taiwan and the People's Republic of China are apparently not a (long-term) impediment to the attainment of liberal democracy.
    The (non-Party) money on the mainland is with the "middle" class, a relatively tiny section of the "community" that has seen large windfalls out of the opening up (aka the introduction of effectively unregulated, localised capitalism). Actual democratisation of more or less anything will strip them of their position. For example, they'd probably have to pay actual wages in an orderly fashion to people in suitably constructed and maintained workplaces. So the middle class will be working against democracy.

    Presumably such growing pains were felt in Taiwan too, or at least in the last twenty years they haven't worked under martial law, but Taiwan's liddle. It's itsy bitsy. The mainland isn't. There's probably a billion peasants on the mainland.

    Which is neither here nor there. Because Chinese culture is a monolith. The basic structuring makes it so. Unity, not diversity.



    And something about a peril, I heard.

  4. #24
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    Presumably such growing pains were felt in Taiwan too, or at least in the last twenty years they haven't worked under martial law, but Taiwan's liddle. It's itsy bitsy. The mainland isn't. There's probably a billion peasants on the mainland.

    Which is neither here nor there. Because Chinese culture is a monolith. The basic structuring makes it so. Unity, not diversity.
    Taiwan has over twenty million people, and a population density that, outside of tiny city-states and the Maldives, is second only to that of Bangladesh. And Chinese culture is NOT a monolith, as evidenced by the abundance of mutually unintelligable languages, each spoken by tens of millions of people, around the Mainland (which is actually a lot more diverse than Taiwan). There are obviously a lot of similarities as well, and those cultural similarities (which would be what comprises a distinctive "Chinese culture") are apparently not a substantial impediment to liberal democracy in the long-term. And once again, Chan's comment were percieved to have related to Chinese culture and democracy in general, not whether the mainland Chinese are ready for full-fledged liberal democracy at this particular point in time. Finally, there are also close to a billion peasants in India, which suffers from endemic caste, communal, and ethnic divides as well-they have somehow managed to have a functioning democracy with extensive (by international standards) liberal elements in spite of that.

  5. #25
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    And Singapore has "democracy" too. And so does Hong Kong. I shall coin the term "feudal democracy".

    Chan was perceived as speaking for all Chinese because he phrased it that way. Or if you believe the press agent spin, he was misquoted to have phrased it that way. Except it really does sound like things I hear all the time: "We Chinese..." Or, as they like to say in the PRC, "Our Chinese people..." So why do people talk like that?

    That there are lots and lots of mutually unintelligible Chinese languages is true, but I'm under the impression "unity" has been an enduring theme in Chinese writing and history for millenia. These days the mainland has a monster organising principle, The Party, that makes that theme sound like modern socialism and a cheat, but I am, once again, under the impression that authoritarian states are not new for Chinese culture. And they keep on popping up in all the outposts of ethnic Chinese, Singapore and Hong Kong to name two biggies. One presumably needs to ask, modern socialist rhetoric aside, what was and will be this "unity" Chinese have--apparently--always yearned for.

    That Taiwan has a lot of people discounts the real effect of their economic miracle. Actually, I don't know what the real effect of their genuinely high speed growth. I assume they have had lots and lots of growth, really fast, and developed infrastructure to go with it. Forms of liberal democracy followed, more or less just as a function of huge amounts of money being spread around and needing to be managed.

    I claim democracy is available to people who can make choices. In the modern world, money-saturated environments--and all the consumer infrastructure crap that goes with that--are what enable choice. Sez I. And I don't know why. It just looks true.

    Which leaves us with the question of what democracy. I'm going to go ahead and take it for granted that whatever infrastructure is in place, culture is still going to shape how that infrastructure is used and perceived. I don't think Chinese democracy is, or will be, the same as western liberal democracy.

    So a key question, maybe: why do Chinese speak of "Our Chinese people..."?

    Actually, do they speak like that outside of the PRC? I dunno.

  6. #26
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And Singapore has "democracy" too. And so does Hong Kong. I shall coin the term "feudal democracy".

    Chan was perceived as speaking for all Chinese because he phrased it that way. Or if you believe the press agent spin, he was misquoted to have phrased it that way. Except it really does sound like things I hear all the time: "We Chinese..." Or, as they like to say in the PRC, "Our Chinese people..." So why do people talk like that?

    That there are lots and lots of mutually unintelligible Chinese languages is true, but I'm under the impression "unity" has been an enduring theme in Chinese writing and history for millenia. These days the mainland has a monster organising principle, The Party, that makes that theme sound like modern socialism and a cheat, but I am, once again, under the impression that authoritarian states are not new for Chinese culture. And they keep on popping up in all the outposts of ethnic Chinese, Singapore and Hong Kong to name two biggies. One presumably needs to ask, modern socialist rhetoric aside, what was and will be this "unity" Chinese have--apparently--always yearned for.

    That Taiwan has a lot of people discounts the real effect of their economic miracle. Actually, I don't know what the real effect of their genuinely high speed growth. I assume they have had lots and lots of growth, really fast, and developed infrastructure to go with it. Forms of liberal democracy followed, more or less just as a function of huge amounts of money being spread around and needing to be managed.

    I claim democracy is available to people who can make choices. In the modern world, money-saturated environments--and all the consumer infrastructure crap that goes with that--are what enable choice. Sez I. And I don't know why. It just looks true.

    Which leaves us with the question of what democracy. I'm going to go ahead and take it for granted that whatever infrastructure is in place, culture is still going to shape how that infrastructure is used and perceived. I don't think Chinese democracy is, or will be, the same as western liberal democracy.

    So a key question, maybe: why do Chinese speak of "Our Chinese people..."?

    Actually, do they speak like that outside of the PRC? I dunno.
    Chinese people have a strong sense of unity. Because we were bullied byu the western powers , particularly by Japan and Great Britian for much of the twentieth century. Mao restored that sense of unoity by uniting the country under 1 flag.

    I guess if you want ot define the word " chinese" it is someone who has the "chinese" genetic code and can speak andr write chinese farely fluently. He would also has siome aadequate uynderstanding of chinese culture. If he lives in the mainland or or the some region close to it (hong Kong,t taiwan) and not born in a foreign country, this would even be better.

    there are 94 ethnic groups in china, so even if one claims himself to be part of china, he cannot claim trhat he can understand how the entire china works as a nation. Every different region has its own edistinct culture and tradition. Even a chinese from the mainland cannot make such a claim

    And seriously Jackie Chjan does not represent china.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  7. #27
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    To understand China, Kalach, you must live and breath china. that means going there and see what its like, rather than learning from books. Even I lack this kind of experience.

    But I would say your understanding of china is pretty strong.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  8. #28
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Chinese people have a strong sense of unity. Because we were bullied byu the western powers , particularly by Japan and Great Britian for much of the twentieth century. Mao restored that sense of unoity by uniting the country under 1 flag.
    Dude, you're Chinese? Cool!

    Unity was not a concern before the 19th century? I have no particular research to hand to say it was, just a collection of hints and clues picked up from scattered reading and the way people talk these days. Sure, the Chinese nation was remade suddenly in 1949, and a lot of destruction followed, but I have the sense that something endured. I have the impression that even if there was a Year Zero, still something was carried along secretly in the hearts of people. And maybe mutated. But it's still there, in one form or another.

    Chinese I have met are, forgive me, freaky that way. Traditional culture exists and maintains in a way it does not so much for peoples of, say, England or the US or Australia.

    Just an impression.



    (Horn tootin': I've lived in Hunan, Zhejiang, Jiangsu and Shaanxi. I don't claim to have learned too much. I'm INTJ and don't like people in my house.)

  9. #29
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So a key question, maybe: why do Chinese speak of "Our Chinese people..."?

    Actually, do they speak like that outside of the PRC? I dunno.
    Could be from translation... It's a popular way of starting public speeches etc in mainland.... "We, Chinese people" is the literal translation from Mandarin or Cantonese. I guess it's suppose to reflect nationalism... despite having 60+ odd tribes, regions etc we're still united under one government, one flag...
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Could be from translation... It's a popular way of starting public speeches etc in mainland.... "We, Chinese people" is the literal translation from Mandarin or Cantonese. I guess it's suppose to reflect nationalism... despite having 60+ odd tribes, regions etc we're still united under one government, one flag...
    This is where I look silly because I haven't learned that much Mandarin, but while "our Chinese" is a more or less direct translation of "women Zhongguoren", I have the (perhaps erroneous) impression it connotes something culturally different from other collective expressions like "Americans" or "the British" or "sports fans".

    Again, just an impression. And it's hard to work out the differences between something culturally fundamental and something bred in the current rhetorical environment.

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