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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I am amazed they emphasized any other issue they protested on besides taxes. Well done so far....
    I'm not going to address it point by point... but this makes me wonder. Was this about taxes? What exactly about taxes was it about...? I mean, the main complaint.

  2. #22
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    If you want to see more right-wing friendly news commentary, maybe more conservatives should get interested in journalism.

    I liked what the White House press spokesman Robert Gibbs said about the protests, "I don't know if the President is aware of the events. I think the President will use tomorrow as a day to have an event here at the White House to signal the important steps in the economic recovery and reinvestment plan that cut taxes for 95 percent of working families in America, just as the President proposed doing; cuts in taxes and tax credits for the creation of clean energy jobs."

    Risen, you could be getting a tax cut... all of your tax protesting could have been in vain.

  3. #23
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If you want to see more right-wing friendly news commentary, maybe more conservatives should get interested in journalism.

    I liked what the White House press spokesman Robert Gibbs said about the protests, "I don't know if the President is aware of the events. I think the President will use tomorrow as a day to have an event here at the White House to signal the important steps in the economic recovery and reinvestment plan that cut taxes for 95 percent of working families in America, just as the President proposed doing; cuts in taxes and tax credits for the creation of clean energy jobs."

    Risen, you could be getting a tax cut... all of your tax protesting could have been in vain.

    "95 percent of working families" is not 95 percent of Americans. And 100% of Americans who pay taxes should be getting tax cuts.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm not going to address it point by point... but this makes me wonder. Was this about taxes? What exactly about taxes was it about...? I mean, the main complaint.
    That's the point. Look, the "tea party" is used symbolically not just for what it was as a protest against taxes, but for what it was as a protest against government oppression and tyranny. Those same sorts of feelings and sentiments are present today. People are not going out and protesting the present state of taxes, save in states like California where our taxes have gone up exponentially (because of government spending). The media that has a stake in the left wing political parties would have you think it was just about taxes so they can discredit the whole thing, since obviously FEDERAL taxes haven't gone up yet. As it RELATES to taxes, people are protesting against government spending which will, like in California, necessitate an increase in federal taxes.

    Aside from that issue, people are also protesting against big government, bailouts, and voicing their discontent over the current political system. Peiople are discontent over the two party system which has failed us time and time again. Everyone always talks about no matter how you vote you don't really have a choice. That's what I've always grown up hearing. It's true. These people get voted into office and then start going in a completely different direction from what they campaigned on. Republicans and democrats end up acting the same way, and then people get ticked off because no matter which side they choose, they still lose. Then there is the issue of taxing one group of people to give to another group (socialism) which many people are strongly against.

    These are some of the issues which are driving people out of their homes and offices to go protest. It is a litany of issues pressing upon the public today, not just any one issue. I doubt it will ever be confined to just one issue, because it is not singularly coordinated. Every community has their own set of problems as it relate to government, but the basic principles behind the issues that lead them to gather are the same. I went out to a protest because I want to see the government stop the crazy spending, I want to see them allow companies to fail, I don't want them to continue grabbing power and diminishing liberties, and I want the republicans to start adhering to real principles and stop serving their special interest masters. I want the country to return to some common freaking sense.

    This whole thing could go any number of ways (good and bad), but the highest hope is probably to amass a great number of citizens together in this movement and start getting the political machinery to move in the right direction. We need to make the politicians take heed and realize that they need to change their act, or contend with a growing mass of voters who are discontent. Once they start listening, that is the time to start making concerted demands about specific policies and changes that need to be instituted.

  5. #25
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    "95 percent of working families" is not 95 percent of Americans. And 100% of Americans who pay taxes should be getting tax cuts.
    Okay?

  6. #26
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    You'll understand someday.
    If only life were as simple as you think it is.

    How long can you push the "don't raise taxes on the rich" line before everyone just gets annoyed?

  7. #27
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Okay?
    "Working families" does not mean a family in which at least one person works. It's code for families with income under a certain amount.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #28
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If only life were as simple as you think it is.

    How long can you push the "don't raise taxes on the rich" line before everyone just gets annoyed?

    What you fail to understand is that many Americans who will never be rich wholeheartedly agree with "don't raise taxes on the rich, or anyone else." Many of them were outside protesting yesterday.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    This whole thing could go any number of ways (good and bad), but the highest hope is probably to amass a great number of citizens together in this movement and start getting the political machinery to move in the right direction. We need to make the politicians take heed and realize that they need to change their act, or contend with a growing mass of voters who are discontent. Once they start listening, that is the time to start making concerted demands about specific policies and changes that need to be instituted.
    Well, let's hope then. Your explanation is pretty good, all I got from most is rage...

    I don't think there is much chance of that, but if your belief that it became/is grassroots that would gain popular support, then it could. I still believe it was a movement started back in 2008, engineered as a political weapon. I highly doubt that it was piggy backed for that purpose, given the dates involved. Has lots of historical precedent and fits the pattern perfectly to me.

    But... I don't disagree with your hopes... I just don't think they are reflected in this movement.

  10. #30
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Don't you think it would be irresponsible if the government did nothing and we let industries fail and risk long-term depression?

    Before government really got involved in the economy, there was an economic crisis once every 15 or so years. Regulation offered stability, but after some time people thought it would be okay to deregulate again, which caused further instability. Hence the current push for oversight and regulation.
    I think it's irresponsible that we didn't let the companies go under. Why should they be rewarded for bad behavior, while other businesses fail on a daily basis? There is no rhyme or reason to it. We are just delaying the inevitable. If the businesses failed, we would have been slowed for maybe a year or two. But by prolonging what will eventually happen, we are setting ourselves up for a decade of misery.

    The government is not supposed to protect us from failing in our private ventures - that's not the point of the government. And if that is their duty, why have they let so many other ventures go under? They punish those who act responsibly and encourage those who don't.

    I think this could be a great time to get back into the spirit of entrepreneurship, rather than holding up a few companies that get greedy and refuse to grow and change with the times. This is what happens in capitalism - businesses are created and businesses fail.

    A little bit of history (feel free to skip if you already know):
    Government was always involved in the economy. This particular crisis has been in motion since the CRA of 1977, by beloved doofus Jimmy Carter, which penalized banks for not making loans to high risk borrowers. And then ACORN happened. Then beloved Bill Clinton forced Fannie and Freddie to increase their subprime loans to half of their portfolio, which is insane. He did this just a few months before leaving office.

    The govt created Fannie Mae under FDR, but in 1968 it was made a "private" organization. Freddie Mac was then created by the govt to compete with Fannie. And even though these govt corporations are technically "private" organizations, they are the only 2 companies in the fortune 500 that do not have to make their accounting public. Not to the public and not to the investors. These GSEs (govt sponsored enterprises) buy the subprime loans from the banks and they are backed by the taxpayer (thanks to the Republican Congress). The GSEs (Fannie and Freddie) now carry the bad loans, backed by us, and that creates a fluid mortgage market. So banks are free to give money away to any and every single person - since these loans are ultimately sold to the GSEs (did I mention that they are backed by taxpayers??).

    This created a housing bubble and home prices skyrocketed because developers knew that the banks would grant the loans for those amounts, etc... Then the GSEs package these loans to MBSs (mortgage backed securities) and sold them off to investment firms for trading against. But at the end of the day, the subprime borrowers didn't pay back the loans. I think you get the point. Shall I continue? I don't want to derail this thread. I just wanted to illustrate how dangerous and detrimental it is to allow the government into the private sector. They can't manage even VA hospitals - why would you trust them with your health or your wealth??

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