User Tag List

First 21011121314 Last

Results 111 to 120 of 149

  1. #111
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, that is not what I meant. There are rules that, even if Congress and the POTUS set up, are unconstitutional. The Supreme Court is supposed to prevent such abuses, but it is not always reliable. The government is supposed to serve as a CHECK to popular will much of the time, because popular will is often stupid, and it may want that which actually takes rights away.
    That's true, and theoretically that's what the judicial branch is supposed to do. Agreed that it doesn't always work punctually, but over time only progressive legislation stands.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Well, the average American taxpayer is working until May to pay their federal, state, and local taxes for the year. Taxes may be higher in other parts of the world, but that doesn't mean we have it good here. It means that other countries have it worse. Also, the corporate income tax rate in the United States is the second-highest in the world, after Japan's. But let's take a short list of things the federal government is not supposed to do, shall we?

    - Criminalize vices

    - Fight a paramilitary drug war

    - Deficit spend for decades at a clip

    - Take over private businesses

    - Use taxpayers' money to bail out private businesses

    - Invade sovereign countries in an offensive war

    - Aggrandize itself to the detriment of state and local governments

    - Hold people without lawyers or trials

    - Search people and property and conduct wiretaps without warrants


    And several other things explicitly or implicitly prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.
    Actually yes, I completely agree with all of these. Most of them are social issues, and socially I'm quite liberal. I told you, I think Libertarians have the right idea in principle; they just don't know when to stop with too much of a good thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    THIS IS NOT A COUNTRY IN WHICH THE DECISIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO COME FROM THE MAJORITY. I cannot stress this enough. We have a constitution and common law set up specifically to restrain the three branches of the federal government AND the people.
    That's true, but at the end of the day majority ends up ruling because a large enough majority can change the Constitution. It's not that majority rule isn't to be trusted ever, just that on certain particular, really important issues, you need more than a simple majority. I think that's fair enough.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    A) Libertarianism does not assume people live in a "perfect vacuum;" and B) the government often is the thing that people make money despite. How would it be inconsistent to claim that the federal government should be limited to the minimum of defense, contract enforcement, infrastructure, etc.? It's pretty flimsy to use the "social contract" claim that the amount of taxes we pay is OK, since the government does so many things. What if you don't want the government to do most of what it does?
    The vacuum thing is a reference to the fact that Libertarians tend to believe that they, and they alone, are responsible for their successes or failures, when in reality a much wider spectrum of variables, many of which are out of the control of individuals, goes into this. If the government wasn't there providing basic protections and generating the laws of commerce that protect you while you make your money, you'd just get killed by the nearest roaming gang of vandals who want your shit.

    It's not inconsistent to claim that--it's rationally sound on paper; that isn't the problem. It's just that in the real world, human compassion compels me toward the view that making sure people can feed their families is more important than keeping your nominal income tax rate at the lowest possible level. I don't like welfare leeches any more than you do, but I think it's pretty callous to insist that no social support net should exist at all.

    We don't even really disagree in principle; it's just a matter of degree. We both agree that the government should be able to force some taxation from the people for whatever things it needs to accomplish; you just draw the arbitrary line at a different place than I do. Many Libertarians seem to have the view that anyone who isn't as successful as they are simply isn't working hard enough, or is lazy, etc. Neil Boortz wonders, "Why doesn't everyone just start a law firm and make millions of dollars like I did?" But lots of people simply don't have the talent or intelligence to do that, and that doesn't mean that they aren't hard workers or that they should be denied basic necessities (this includes education) for their families. I believe capitalism is inherently superior to socialism, but I don't buy into the social Darwinist view that we should just let people die out if they're unable to support themselves. The balance, to me, is somewhere a little bit right of center...just not ALL the way to the right.

    If you don't want government to do most of what it does, do the same thing anyone else who wants to enact political change does: vote your conscience and rally others to do the same. If you believe the executive or legislative branches are doing unconstitutional things, take it to the judicial branch and sue them.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    A) None of the industries that melted down were completely deregulated; and B) economic freedom correlates with and causes economic wealth. This has been been shown clearly over the last century.
    I didn't say they were completely deregulated, but that doesn't prevent them from not being regulated enough.

    That's great, but economic wealth is not always the most pressing issue at hand. It's an important value, but it's not the only value worth taking into consideration--Libertarian government would theoretically work if we just ignored the concept of human compassion entirely, but I think that's pretty impractical, personally. We have to be able to stop the social support net in places where people are abusing it, but that doesn't make it a fundamentally bad idea.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #112
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    2w1
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    504

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post

    - the gov't forced the banks to create these subprime loans, by way of penalization.
    - the gov't used taxpaying dollars to secure the loans
    - the gov't bought and sold those bad loans as investments under umbrella corporations that are not subject to the same rules and regulations as other "private" businesses.
    Amen.

    It isnt about what side won and what side lost. It's about people feeling that the people they did vote into office are not keeping their best interests at heart.

    Looking back at polls that have been posted " 00% of Americans against bailout" (and it was over 70% but I don't have exact numbers) - where are the people dissenting from the bailout approval?

    People are paying taxes that in turn is handed to banks that were forced into bad lending to people that could not afford the types of homes they were purchasing. Now we are forced to bail out banks for making those loans. Everyone is pissed off at the banks and yeah, they are to blame as well, but the government is the one that made the big boo-boo and here we are! It's ok though, because President Obama will just take stock out of said banks and "invest" in them. Yay us.

    So those of us that lived within our means and didn't take out bad loans, are now paying for those that did.

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
    Cognitive Process
    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

  3. #113
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexx View Post
    Amen.

    It isnt about what side won and what side lost. It's about people feeling that the people they did vote into office are not keeping their best interests at heart.
    But Obama has very high approval ratings in favorability and the handling of the economy. Most people want something to be done to end the recession, instead of doing nothing and letting the market work itself out when it chooses to. The people who voted for him still support him, and most everyone at the Tea Bag parties didn't vote for him.

  4. #114
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    2w1
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    504

    Default

    It seems just as unfair as people paying property tax (includes school tax) for things which they don't use.


    It's like...


    Meet Joe.

    Joe bought a house 5 years ago that appraised at $225,000.00, and pays property tax every year, say $11,000.00. A very large portion of that property tax is for the local school districts. Schoolís need money for books, teacher salaries etc. We all want our nations children to receive a good education so that they can pursue any career they want.

    Joe doesnít have any children yet.


    Meet Mary.

    Mary lives in the same Zip code as Joe, but Mary lives in an apartment complex close by. Mary is paying $900.00 per month in rent. Mary pays no property tax (you can say itís rolled into the rent till youíre blue in the face but the impact on the individual is different - and you know it). Mary also has 3 beautiful children. Mary receives a tax rebate each year for having children, and the more she has, the more she gets back.

    Now, Joe is basically having money taken out of his pocket to pay for something he doesnít utilize. State tax and Income tax are different, you canít build streets or run a government without it. However Mary is not only not having to contribute any money to the school system which she does utilize Ė she is also receiving more money for having children (which is a personal choice and should be dealt with, personally.)


    See the problem?

    And thay want to tax cigarettes more. TAX KIDS! (jk) But really... create a school tax? At one time only landowners could vote, it isn't like this anymore. I could see school taxes charged to the property owners back then (in some weird, twisted light). But I think the real reason they will never create a school tax is because......

    Many people are irresponsible and will not send their children to school. Therefore the child suffers due to the parents negligence.
    Great huh? Just keep popping those kids out! Really! You deserve the blessing!

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
    Cognitive Process
    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

  5. #115
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    2w1
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    504

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    But Obama has very high approval ratings in favorability and the handling of the economy. Most people want something to be done to end the recession, instead of do nothing and letting the market work itself out when it chooses to. The people who voted for him still support him, and most everyone at the Tea Bag parties didn't vote for him.

    Look what he's following? I mean - really.

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
    Cognitive Process
    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

  6. #116
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    I think the taxes = bad mantra is played out. Republicans have beat the concept to death.

    In a recession caused by too much deregulation, we need more regulatory involvement. When America first came about, before most regulations, we had an economic crisis every 10 to 15 years. Then the government got more involved, and there wasn't another crisis until the government got lazy and started to deregulate.

  7. #117
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexx View Post
    It seems just as unfair as people paying property tax (includes school tax) for things which they don't use.


    It's like...


    Meet Joe.

    Joe bought a house 5 years ago that appraised at $225,000.00, and pays property tax every year, say $11,000.00. A very large portion of that property tax is for the local school districts. Schoolís need money for books, teacher salaries etc. We all want our nations children to receive a good education so that they can peruse any career they want.

    Joe doesnít have any children yet.


    Meet Mary.

    Mary lives in the same Zip code as Joe, but Mary lives in an apartment complex close by. Mary is paying $900.00 per month in rent. Mary pays no property tax (you can say itís rolled into the rent till youíre blue in the face but the impact on the individual is different - and you know it). Mary also has 3 beautiful children. Mary receives a tax rebate each year for having children, and the more she has, the more she gets back.

    Now, Joe is basically having money taken out of his pocket to pay for something he doesnít utilize. State tax and Income tax are different, you canít build streets or run a government without it. However Mary is not only not having to contribute any money to the school system which she does utilize Ė she is also receiving more money for having children (which is a personal choice and should be dealt with, personally.)


    See the problem?

    And thay want to tax cigarettes more. TAX KIDS! (jk) But really... create a school tax? At one time only landowners could vote, it isn't like this anymore. I could see school taxes charged to the property owners back then (in some weird, twisted light). But I think the real reason they will never create a school tax is because......

    Many people are irresponsible and will not send their children to school. Therefore the child suffers due to the parents negligence.
    Great huh? Just keep popping those kids out! Really! You deserve the blessing!
    I'm a conservative, but even I think government spending on education is a good thing and should be increased. It's the other spending I don't like. Everyone should get free education, because it is demonstrably the only way you can learn to be a productive member of society. It's an investment into a government's future sustainability to make sure its citizens can produce and consume. Both ideologies feel this way, however where we differ are where the line should be drawn as far as how much government provides. Liberals will argue healthcare should be like education, free for all those ask for it, most conservatives will not, or certainly not go as far.



  8. #118
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    2w1
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    504

    Default

    I can see how minimal involvement is a MUST - but not to the extent they are pushing it to.


    I mean - AJ. If the government had not been involved in FORCING banks to give bad loans, we wouldn't be in this mess.

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
    Cognitive Process
    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

  9. #119
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7~7
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    But Obama has very high approval ratings in favorability and the handling of the economy. Most people want something to be done to end the recession, instead of doing nothing and letting the market work itself out when it chooses to. The people who voted for him still support him, and most everyone at the Tea Bag parties didn't vote for him.
    Do you have proof of this?
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  10. #120
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    2w1
    Socionics
    ENFp
    Posts
    504

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm a conservative, but even I think government spending on education is a good thing and should be increased. It's the other spending I don't like. Everyone should get free education, because it is demonstrably the only way you can learn to be a productive member of society. It's an investment into a government's future sustainability to make sure its citizens can produce and consume. Both ideologies feel this way, however where we differ are where the line should be drawn as far as how much government provides. Liberals will argue healthcare should be like education, free for all those ask for it, most conservatives will not, or certainly not go as far.
    I'm not saying that it isn't important. It is. But streamline it more. Increase it - yeah. Do that! But don't take it out of my damn pocket. RESPONSIBLE SPENDING!

    Cut that 1.6 million science project on how mold grows on bread or something instead.

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
    Cognitive Process
    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

Similar Threads

  1. The future of the Republican party
    By Lateralus in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 797
    Last Post: 09-22-2015, 01:06 PM
  2. Former Republican staffer's extremely scathing critique of the Republican party.
    By Magic Poriferan in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-23-2011, 07:29 PM
  3. Unity within the upper echelons of the Republican Party begins to crack.
    By DiscoBiscuit in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 10-26-2009, 12:18 PM
  4. The Death of the Republican Party, Stardate Unknown
    By Wind Up Rex in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 08-08-2009, 01:58 PM
  5. media coverage of the tea parties Part 2, (the video they don't want you to see)
    By cogdecree in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-24-2009, 06:36 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO