User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 55

  1. #11
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    I don't think that capitalism is "an idealistic philosophy." I don't know that capitalism even is a philosophy. And we all know that there are different types of capitalism. It's more a system than a philosophy (libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism would be philosophies by my standards). It's a beautiful system, though. I have this T-shirt:


    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #12
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Curiosity killed the cat. Humans won't allow themselves to be contained. They will want to feel they made their own choices. Even if you train all humans from birth to follow one specific form without any leniency. There will those that search for more, that need more. It's a primal instinct we all have I think. Sure there will be people that will stick with defeat rather then surrendering to their impulses, but I'm certain that will be impossible to achieve for an entire population.

    Actually, I disagree. Capitalism is about as far from anarchy as communism is. Capitalism impairs the individual freedom by strict common ideals and a strict common ruleset. Minimal government intervention sure, but based on a very strict social order. And a strict, very idealistic, ruleset.
    What strict social order are you talking about?

    Are you referring to "those that have" and "those that have not"? If so, that is applicable to any non-utopian society. There will be always those that have (whether it would be money, power, influence, physical strength, good looks) and those that do not.

    Whilest anarchy is based on complete individual freedom. I agree that doesn't work as a society with a large population. But the difference between capitalism and anarchy is really far apart.
    You haven't answered my previous question, so let me give it another try.

    How is capitalism restrictive in a way that anarchy is not? I mean, aside from the obvious that in capitalism I get to keep my money while in anarchy you can rob me and be on your merry way without any retaliation from the government.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  3. #13
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    How is capitalism restrictive in a way that anarchy is not? I mean, aside from the obvious that in capitalism I get to keep my money while in anarchy you can rob me and be on your merry way without any retaliation from the government.
    It's restrictive in that the only way for capitalism to work, the only way it doesn't end up one big pile of mess, is to have each and every inhabitant believing in the same idealistic views as anyone else. Some might be more succesful then others, sure, but unless everyone's views match. Unless there isn't equality amongst the people. There will be chaos, and there will be revolting. Cliques will form, people will group and it's every man for himself to such an extent, there is no capitalism anymore.

    So, from the perspective of a working, functioning, capitalistic point of view. People aren't inherently free. In fact, they'd all be slaves to the same structure. No genuine freedom to speak off. And as soon as some start to seize their freedom, chaos inherits. There will be offenders and defenders and slwoly it'll all break into a big pile of anarchistic goo. As capitalism doesn't have any structural backbone to speak off that would be able to keep humanities inhereted chaos in line.

    Hmm, it's kinda hard to explain I suppose. :<

    But you sort off answered it yourself. You mentioned you disliked the idea of a Utopia. I can assume you realize that a utopian structure would never work, as humans would have to give up their proverbial freedom, in order for that utopia to keep functioning. And that's also how I feel about capitalism. It's a very philosophical and idealist structure. Why? Because it can not function without just that. And to have that, means to give up sense of freedom.



    In small communities, such utopian ideals could potentially be realized with great success. But most definatly not an a grand scale.

  4. #14
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    It's restrictive in that the only way for capitalism to work, the only way it doesn't end up one big pile of mess, is to have each and every inhabitant believing in the same idealistic views as anyone else. Some might be more succesful then others, sure, but unless everyone's views match. Unless there isn't equality amongst the people. There will be chaos, and there will be revolting. Cliques will form, people will group and it's every man for himself to such an extent, there is no capitalism anymore
    Are you serious? The whole point of capitalism is that people have different talents and desires, and they use their talents and resources through means of exchange in order to satisfy their desires. That is the market in a nutshell. You and I have radically different philosophies and beliefs, correct? Does that mean that I can't sell you a book on eBay?


    So, from the perspective of a working, functioning, capitalistic point of view. People aren't inherently free. In fact, they'd all be slaves to the same structure. No genuine freedom to speak off. And as soon as some start to seize their freedom, chaos inherits. There will be offenders and defenders and slwoly it'll all break into a big pile of anarchistic goo. As capitalism doesn't have any structural backbone to speak off that would be able to keep humanities inhereted chaos in line.
    To which structure are people slaves, and how are they unfree? And how can they be slaves to a structure if capitalism doesn't have a "structural backbone?"


    Hmm, it's kinda hard to explain I suppose. :<

    But you sort off answered it yourself. You mentioned you disliked the idea of a Utopia. I can assume you realize that a utopian structure would never work, as humans would have to give up their proverbial freedom, in order for that utopia to keep functioning. And that's also how I feel about capitalism. It's a very philosophical and idealist structure. Why? Because it can not function without just that. And to have that, means to give up sense of freedom.
    I wholeheartedly disagree here. Capitalism wasn't imposed. It evolved with human beings who have unlimited desires but limited resources. Voluntary exchange is as old as humankind. Which freedom is lost through capitalism, and how?



    In small communities, such utopian ideals could potentially be realized with great success. But most definatly not an a grand scale.
    Those small communities with the shared ideals are often the most repressive in the world. I'll take my big, rich, cosmopolitan world of capitalism, thank you.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #15
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Well, sense of freedom is in itself enough material for an entirely different thread.

    My main point, a subjective point, my opinion. Is that any such system would simply not function with the diversity and chaos within each and every one of us.

    I did say capitalism in itself offers great things, and appears to have great potential. But I really don't see it function, ever. We wouldn't allow it to happen as a race. I would not be able to answer if that is a bad or a good thing. But I do strongly believe, that we would not be contained in a capitalistic environment. The very differences between us would drive us apart and fracture the structure.

    Why do I think that? Well, I suppose it's mostly a guess. Based on my understanding on humanity. And you may argue that, ofcourse. But I do not have enough faith in humankind to be able to live in peace and co-exist contently in a capitalistic structure.

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    We need nannies. :P

  7. #17
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Well, sense of freedom is in itself enough material for an entirely different thread.

    My main point, a subjective point, my opinion. Is that any such system would simply not function with the diversity and chaos within each and every one of us.

    I did say capitalism in itself offers great things, and appears to have great potential. But I really don't see it function, ever. We wouldn't allow it to happen as a race. I would not be able to answer if that is a bad or a good thing. But I do strongly believe, that we would not be contained in a capitalistic environment. The very differences between us would drive us apart and fracture the structure.

    Why do I think that? Well, I suppose it's mostly a guess. Based on my understanding on humanity. And you may argue that, ofcourse. But I do not have enough faith in humankind to be able to live in peace and co-exist contently in a capitalistic structure.

    I live in relative peace and my existence is rather nice. And I think that my neighbors are happy, as well. Can you be more specific?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    We need a certain amount of control to keep us in check. A certain amount of control that capitalism would not be able to offer on a grand scale. To the individual capitalism would work. But put millions of individuals in the same situation together. And it starts to fail.

    Democracy allows us to believe we have a control over the way we run things. We all have a say. If we don't feel we have enough say, we join politics and put our word forth in a more strong manner.

    Capitalism doesn't have that control. It doesn't have those boundaries. And we, as a race, would fail in it.

    You might live in peace, together with your neighbours too, sure. But with the entire world as your neighbour? I doubt you can say with any certainty, that you believe that to be possible.

    There will be groups, ethnical groups most profoundly no doubt. And there will be restlessness. Even the threat of war.

  9. #19
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    We need a certain amount of control to keep us in check. A certain amount of control that capitalism would not be able to offer on a grand scale. To the individual capitalism would work. But put millions of individuals in the same situation together. And it starts to fail.

    Democracy allows us to believe we have a control over the way we run things. We all have a say. If we don't feel we have enough say, we join politics and put our word forth in a more strong manner.

    Capitalism doesn't have that control. It doesn't have those boundaries. And we, as a race, would fail in it.

    You might live in peace, together with your neighbours too, sure. But with the entire world as your neighbour? I doubt you can say with any certainty, that you believe that to be possible.

    There will be groups, ethnical groups most profoundly no doubt. And there will be restlessness. Even the threat of war.
    OK, but that still happens under socialism, communism, tribal systems, or any kind of societal organization. You're talking about human nature being flawed, and that is true and always will be. I can't help but think that you are assigning qualities to capitalism that it may not have. When I say "capitalism," what exactly are you thinking about? What are its qualities?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    The thread was about what is wrong with Marxism. (Capitalism).

    Ehm, in as few words as I possibly can, my opinion towards that, as I have showed here, is:

    It doesn't work, because we as a race would not be capable of making it work.

    When I say "capitalism," what exactly are you thinking about?
    In that regard, I view capitalism is a very fragile structure. That -HAS- to be based on a very, very strict common idealism in order for humanity to function in peace with each other. Capitalism in itself might not appear to be so strict. The problem lies within the execution of the system. And that's in my opinion an integral part of the system and has as much weight in the discussion about capitalism as any other aspect.

    What are its qualities?

    Its qualities are its integral ideals, which all would have great merit in a perfect world. I do not oppose the idea of capitalism. The idea of capitalism is most definatly worth investigating and exploring and is perhaps a worthy arguement as to once reach one or similar structure in which we could all exist, should we ever do get ready for it.

    But right now, we wouldn't be able to execute it in reality as well as we could on paper.



    Anyhow, I don't believe I can better word myself on the subject without resorting to rewording my own arguements beyond recognition. I'm already doing just that. I need more fresh input so would like to here more peoples thoughts on this.

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] i'm not sure whats wrong with me
    By fallout in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-13-2011, 02:53 PM
  2. What is Wrong with Economy
    By wildcat in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-31-2008, 09:15 AM
  3. [NT] Whats wrong with this picture?
    By BlackOp in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-03-2008, 05:03 PM
  4. [MBTItm] What's wrong with being an xNTJ, anyway?
    By Enyo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 08-18-2008, 02:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO