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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'll only reference Wikipedia if it has proper citation.

    But really, would you answer the question? Do you get news from different sources throughout the political spectrum, or mostly just from one place?
    Figure it out by reading and researching for once. You have a huge sample of data on this forum to answer your inane questions .

  2. #72
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Right, the more wealthy a country is, the more extensive their welfare state can be. Both being good things that help people, right?
    Helping people and being wealthy is a pretty good thing, sure.

    Social justice deals with things like economic and health inequalities.
    Social justice deals (mostly) with the inequalities people are born into - positional inequalities. It's suppose to reduce the advantages of, say, money buying education/position/health... advantages that make it nearly impossible for the people born without the advantages to compete. It should represent an even playing field. This is significantly different than 'artificially' giving money to people and keeping the infrastructure 'free market'. That's what the US does, effectively, and it is relatively less efficient than just directly intervening in the social 'injustices' that create the 'class' issues.

    So instead of giving money to make poverty disappear, you remove the conditions that *create* a class of poverty. Giving money reduces the 'math' of poverty while creating an incentive to be in that class. And the poor aren't any better off, either. Sure they can afford more 'tv's (widgets), but they still can barely afford proper health care - which can turn middle class into poor class with no means to get the care to return to their "natural" level.

    Keep in mind I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't think that the metrics involved in poverty have any real meaning for the goodness of "welfare". Giving money won't ever make the inequalities - the structural ones - go away... and that's the real issue that matters.

  3. #73
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Figure it out by reading and researching for once. You have a huge sample of data on this forum to answer your inane questions .
    No, I think I know the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Helping people and being wealthy is a pretty good thing, sure.



    Social justice deals (mostly) with the inequalities people are born into - positional inequalities. It's suppose to reduce the advantages of, say, money buying education/position/health... advantages that make it nearly impossible for the people born without the advantages to compete. It should represent an even playing field. This is significantly different than 'artificially' giving money to people and keeping the infrastructure 'free market'. That's what the US does, effectively, and it is relatively less efficient than just directly intervening in the social 'injustices' that create the 'class' issues.

    So instead of giving money to make poverty disappear, you remove the conditions that *create* a class of poverty. Giving money reduces the 'math' of poverty while creating an incentive to be in that class. And the poor aren't any better off, either. Sure they can afford more 'tv's (widgets), but they still can barely afford proper health care - which can turn middle class into poor class with no means to get the care to return to their "natural" level.

    Keep in mind I don't entirely disagree with you. I just don't think that the metrics involved in poverty have any real meaning for the goodness of "welfare". Giving money won't ever make the inequalities - the structural ones - go away... and that's the real issue that matters.
    I don't think the US has an effective welfare state, and it's mostly likely about to undergo major reform. Do you have any major critiques of the welfare states of places like Northern Europe? Social justice policies there result in a very nice quality-of-life and safety net for their residents.

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