User Tag List

First 5678 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 73

  1. #61
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    iSFj
    Enneagram
    2 sx/so
    Posts
    9,666

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I think in the US, women make 75% of what men make on average. And in some urban areas with a young population, women outearn men. In Canada and Europe, the male/female income gap might be even smaller. So women are carrying a good portion of the tax burden nowadays.
    The women in the welfare state would get tax breaks for their dependents.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Income inequality can increase while poverty is decreasing and standards of living increase, as happened in East Asia the past 30 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Using the poverty measurement, everyone can be cave people and 'not poor'. Removing poverty by handing money over is exactly that... it's just income inequality. It doesn't represent real equality, opportunity... doesn't represent real social justice. It's 'bad' welfare.

    Meaning, I don't think it was ever in question that it 'reduces' poverty - handing money to the poor would do that. But stop the transfers and poverty skyrockets. It doesn't actually get anyone "out" of poverty.

    (I say this as someone who tends to support social justice institutions in an effort to actually reduce poverty.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Problem is that wage slavery is a not a substantial means of supporting a family. I do believe that families should be given oppurtunities and needs to be able to stand on their own feet, and not be dependent upon the government. One reason why I believe in the wider distribution of private property.
    Agreed.

  2. #62
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If a welfare state reduces income inequality, and raises the standard-of-living of people who before couldn't afford things like health-care and education, the overall standards-of-living and opportunity would rise, which I think would be a net positive.
    But it's only really dealing with income inequality, and even that is surface. It distorts the market noticably and has a huge incentive issue.

    It's entirely different than providing healthcare and education, both things that are structural. By providing those services, those that cannot afford it remain competitive... by providing money, you give them the incentive to not be competitive. Not to mention that both of these services gain from government providing them, as they tend to be inefficient when profit is the incentive.

    This is exactly the reason why poverty doesn't really "decrease" - it's a mathematical construct. The real issue is that people that are poor are unable to help themselves out, or face serious barriers... IOW, income mobility.

  3. #63
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    But it's only really dealing with income inequality, and even that is surface. It distorts the market noticably and has a huge incentive issue.

    It's entirely different than providing healthcare and education, both things that are structural. By providing those services, those that cannot afford it remain competitive... by providing money, you give them the incentive to not be competitive. Not to mention that both of these services gain from government providing them, as they tend to be inefficient when profit is the incentive.

    This is exactly the reason why poverty doesn't really "decrease" - it's a mathematical construct. The real issue is that people that are poor are unable to help themselves out, or face serious barriers... IOW, income mobility.
    I understand the free-market argument against having a welfare state.

    But in practice, the existing welfare states tend to also have the top performing economies.

  4. #64
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I understand the free-market argument against having a welfare state.

    But in practice, the existing welfare states tend to also have the top performing economies.
    Can you name a 1st world country that isn't a welfare state? I mean, there is a correlation between welfare and success, but it could easily run that the richer the country, the more they can afford the luxury of welfare. It doesn't mean it helps.

    Having said that, I believe that the right kind of welfare - one that supports social justice - is efficient. I don't think direct transfers work terribly well (ie: equality shouldn't really be the goal, it should be the effect).

  5. #65
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    ptgatsby, what would you say that welfare should primary be done via private institutions(churches for example) with the state playing a secondary, subsidizing role mostly?

  6. #66
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Can you name a 1st world country that isn't a welfare state? I mean, there is a correlation between welfare and success, but it could easily run that the richer the country, the more they can afford the luxury of welfare. It doesn't mean it helps.

    Having said that, I believe that the right kind of welfare - one that supports social justice - is efficient. I don't think direct transfers work terribly well (ie: equality shouldn't really be the goal, it should be the effect).
    Right, the more wealthy a country is, the more extensive their welfare state can be. Both being good things that help people, right?

    Social justice deals with things like economic and health inequalities.

  7. #67
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Posts
    3,187

    Default

    Somewhat related on the issue of spending on welfare, and one aspect to why the welfare/nanny state is flawed/doesn't work.

    [youtube="J77Efwn9l4Y"]Progressive states going bankrupt[/youtube]

  8. #68
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Please, no Glenn Beck in this thread.

    Do you watch or read any real journalism?

  9. #69
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Posts
    3,187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Please, no Glenn Beck in this thread.

    Do you watch or read any real journalism?
    Do you reference anything other than Wikipedia, or do public encyclopedias with random and unknown writers give you the giddy "journalist" feeling (a feeling I suspect you only started to care about after its mention in another thread)? I've heard INTPs steal jokes, but I've never heard of one stealing an argument before.

    Anyway, what were you saying?

  10. #70
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Do you reference anything other than Wikipedia?
    I'll only reference Wikipedia if it has proper citation.

    But really, would you answer the question? Do you get news from different sources throughout the political spectrum, or mostly just from one place?

Similar Threads

  1. Balanced life, psychologically good practices and the effects on type
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-15-2009, 11:43 AM
  2. Interesting article on the effects of public schools
    By BlackCat in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 05-09-2009, 08:25 PM
  3. [MBTItm] Series #2: The effect of parenting on you.
    By gretch in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 01-02-2009, 11:39 AM
  4. The Effect of Music on Concentration
    By JustDave in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-29-2008, 03:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO