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  1. #51
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'm not sure I know what your critique is exactly. Is it that you think transferring wealth to those who have less of it doesn't reduce poverty? Or that it's negative effect on the wealthy outweighs the positive effect on the middle and lower classes?
    Using the poverty measurement, everyone can be cave people and 'not poor'. Removing poverty by handing money over is exactly that... it's just income inequality. It doesn't represent real equality, opportunity... doesn't represent real social justice. It's 'bad' welfare.

    Meaning, I don't think it was ever in question that it 'reduces' poverty - handing money to the poor would do that. But stop the transfers and poverty skyrockets. It doesn't actually get anyone "out" of poverty.

    (I say this as someone who tends to support social justice institutions in an effort to actually reduce poverty.)

  2. #52
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Yeah, that was around the time when welfare states were becoming popular all over the developed world.
    Yes, the Managerial Revolution as James Burnham called it.

  3. #53
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It cited an actual CIA Factbook that was later proven inaccurate.
    So you weren't talking about a actual fake citation this whole time? And the Soviets are the providers of truth now?

  4. #54
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    So you weren't talking about a actual fake citation this whole time? And the Soviets are the providers of truth now?
    Yes, the Soviets in 1990 provided the accurate information about which their predecessors had lied and the CIA had gotten wrong. It's a very simple concept, but you don't seem to want to believe it. It's the truth, though.
    Last edited by pure_mercury; 04-10-2009 at 02:05 PM.
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  5. #55
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Using the poverty measurement, everyone can be cave people and 'not poor'. Removing poverty by handing money over is exactly that... it's just income inequality. It doesn't represent real equality, opportunity... doesn't represent real social justice. It's 'bad' welfare.

    Meaning, I don't think it was ever in question that it 'reduces' poverty - handing money to the poor would do that. But stop the transfers and poverty skyrockets. It doesn't actually get anyone "out" of poverty.

    (I say this as someone who tends to support social justice institutions in an effort to actually reduce poverty.)
    If a welfare state reduces income inequality, and raises the standard-of-living of people who before couldn't afford things like health-care and education, the overall standards-of-living and opportunity would rise, which I think would be a net positive.

    Of course, this is contingent on the welfare state remaining in effect.

  6. #56
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If a welfare state reduces income inequality, and raises the standard-of-living of people who before couldn't afford things like health-care and education, the overall standard-of-living and opportunity would rise, which I think would be a net positive.

    Of course, this is contingent on the welfare state remaining in effect.

    Income inequality can increase while poverty is decreasing and standards of living increase, as happened in East Asia the past 30 years.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Yes, the Soviets in 1990 provided the accurate information about which their predecessors had lied and the CIA had gotten wrong. It's a very simple concept, but you don't seem to want to believe it. It's the truth, though
    Considering that the CIA's main sources of information are official government and media reports from other countries.

  8. #58
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Income inequality can increase while poverty is decreasing and standards of living increase, as happened in East Asia the past 30 years.
    It's possible, though I don't remember East Asia ever getting high standards-of-living rankings. Maybe they weren't counted in the studies.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Using the poverty measurement, everyone can be cave people and 'not poor'. Removing poverty by handing money over is exactly that... it's just income inequality. It doesn't represent real equality, opportunity... doesn't represent real social justice. It's 'bad' welfare.

    Meaning, I don't think it was ever in question that it 'reduces' poverty - handing money to the poor would do that. But stop the transfers and poverty skyrockets. It doesn't actually get anyone "out" of poverty.

    (I say this as someone who tends to support social justice institutions in an effort to actually reduce poverty.)
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  10. #60
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    We spend a lot on things like health care, yet it's still not universal like in the other developed nations, there's a lot of waste. That's why our health care system is about to undergo reform.
    I'd say reduce the waste until we're seeing results and returns similar to other countries that spend the same. It doesn't do any good jamming more water into a leaky bucket, it just ends up leaking faster. Fix the leaks, then once the program shows good results and is much more efficient then it would be a deserving program of more money.

    However, I'd also like to see statistics that show that those in poverty actually begin to contribute to national productivity instead of just become un-poor because of wealth redistribution. PTgatsby had a great point that, yes, giving poor people more money obviously makes them un-poor, but does it help make them self sufficient and not reliant on the state?



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