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  1. #341
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    However your statement that Rousseau suffered no negative social consequenses as a result of his out-of-wedlock children is not valid. Kierkegaard also suffered negative social consequenses as a result of his break up with Regine.
    Yes right now Im reading through my copy of Johannes Hohlenberg's biography of Kierkegaard, and he notes on page 108:
    "With few exceptions, all the town was on Regine's side, and was agreed in regarding Kierkegaard as a downright and shameless scoundrel."
    If need be, I can also call upon my copy of Joakim Garff's biography, which is 896 pages long!

  2. #342
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    The same attitudes that have led people to be less loyal have resulted in the decline of marriage. We are more selfish and less loyal than ever before in history, without a doubt.
    in looking for the divorce rate by ivy that jennifer referred to in a thread about, um, marriage dissatisfaction, i came across this little gem. i do not mean to dredge up an old thread, but i find i cannot not respond to this bold and downright ignorant statement, because, in fact, i happen to be reading one of the best books i've ever read by a fabulous author named Reay Tannahill called Sex in History. i am only halfway through it, but i thought i'd quote directly from it in response to synarch's statement, as i am quite surprised, as others may or may not be, to find just how bad women had it in history, even when married. actually, courtesans, hetairai (top-level courtesans, knowledgable), and even mistresses seemed overall to have had 'it' way better than wives:

    "In general, the free woman was the property of her father during childhood and of her husband from adolescence on. unless by some fortunate chance love intervened, she was to her husband essentially a mother for his children and a housekeeper, a kind of upper servant to be treated well unless she failed in her duties, in which case she could be dismissed or pensioned off according to inclination. This overall pattern of relationships, established in the Near East well over 3,000 years ago, was to persist not only in europe but in asia, africa, and the americas, with minor variations according to time and place, until the middle years of the nineteenth century."
    And it changed then only because as people started living longer, men started marrying older women, which evened-up the playing field a bit, on into present day.

    throughout history as well, there were scads of illegitimate children, but infanticide, sadly, was a frequent practice. and since birth control was poor or nonexistent, birth rates were more dependent on food resources available at any given time.

    if you think the catholic domination helped things, well, they did put the fear of god into normal people and shamed them into only having sex to procreate, and even that grudgingly, but at numerous costs to emotional and familial well-being.

    that women and men and families are searching for a new paradigm for relationships is a practical reflection that marriage in the traditional sense, for many, does not work.

    if a man or woman is going to be a bad parent, that is, to my mind, irrespective of whether that person is shackled in marriage.
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  3. #343
    heart on fire
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    if a man or woman is going to be a bad parent, that is, to my mind, irrespective of whether that person is shackled in marriage.

    In my family and in-law family, over the past decade or so the females who have become pregnant outside of marriage (and it's running 50-50) have done so with emotionally and economically unstable males, These males have not hung around to be a part of the child's life long-term.

    The girls themselves were not economically stable either. They all seem fairly emotionally stable enough to be good and loving mothers to their children but they all leaned heavily on the working, older members of their own families for support and all but one of them had a second child with a new, unstable father. This is not a good or empowering thing for young women.

    The ones who did wait for marriage to become pregnant have either stayed married or if there was a divorce, the father remained in the picture and provided support, both emotional and material. There's something about the intention there, the commitment coming from the male.

    Maybe this is what most people are thinking of when they read 4 out of 10 people born out of wedlock. That unfortunately most of the time it is not strong, confident, accomplished men and women chosing to live in a bold new way but more often young women who settle for men who have shown them no commitment or reason to trust in them.

  4. #344
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I actually read the title as "4 out of 10 people are born to Warlocks."

    Needless to say, I was disappointed when I clicked on it.

  5. #345
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I actually read the title as "4 out of 10 people are born to Warlocks."
    That would be some revelation that's for sure!

    I wonder what the warlock/non-warlock birth ratio really is.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  6. #346
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    In my family and in-law family, over the past decade or so the females who have become pregnant outside of marriage (and it's running 50-50) have done so with emotionally and economically unstable males, These males have not hung around to be a part of the child's life long-term.

    The girls themselves were not economically stable either. They all seem fairly emotionally stable enough to be good and loving mothers to their children but they all leaned heavily on the working, older members of their own families for support and all but one of them had a second child with a new, unstable father. This is not a good or empowering thing for young women.

    The ones who did wait for marriage to become pregnant have either stayed married or if there was a divorce, the father remained in the picture and provided support, both emotional and material. There's something about the intention there, the commitment coming from the male.

    Maybe this is what most people are thinking of when they read 4 out of 10 people born out of wedlock. That unfortunately most of the time it is not strong, confident, accomplished men and women chosing to live in a bold new way but more often young women who settle for men who have shown them no commitment or reason to trust in them.
    you stumped me a bit here, so i had to go ponder. nice post. i agree with you personally, of course. teen pregnancy, especially, is a serious problem in small town USA, which is part of the reason not working right now for me is sometimes excruciating (cuz i'm a midwife and love working with women, especially young impressionable ones who need sincere guidance in these realms).

    but i guess i just don't believe you (society) can tie marriage with having children anymore. it just doesn't work. the people that wait to have children after x,y, or z are the responsible types that have those intrinsic values already. they are probably the same people that would be great parents, and responsible, whether they married or not.........being 'married,' per se, wasn't what made everything work, in other words.

    and the young, irresponsible and naive parents who are a burden on society, as you know, will not delay sexual relations for marriage or values reasons, when they lack all but basic survival skills in their homelife, many times. no matter how much government funding or propaganda is spewed forth, sex will happen, as it always has.

    linking the two (marriage and children) together might work in say, a sub-community setting, like a community that shared a religious network, a church. or a close-knit network of families or friends who met regularly and shared the same philosophies. but expecting that the general public can unite those two concepts together is like expecting *insert cool analogy here NTs, please*, which just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we all may want it to.

    again, the people who would wait to have sex until they are married are obviously already value driven and would probably do what it takes for their offspring no matter if they got married or not. and there are so many who have, for whatever reason, written marriage off for themselves, as the article attests. so you aren't going to sound plausible to them talking about waiting to have kids until marriage, if they already feel or know they have no desire to get married. you must appeal to these people on a different plane, one that speaks their language.

    the answer? i dunno. birth control is pretty easy and available; withdrawal, as ivy so aptly called attention to; condoms.

    then you get into the tough stuff like 'strengthening family values' etc., which the bush admin was all about. i think studies showed the pregnancy rate actually increased when the focus shifted in schools from birth control counseling to abstinence education....but don't crucify me on this. *cringe*

    i'm not sure of the answers for society, but i do believe you are wasting your breath postulating to society not to have sex until you are married.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #347
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I'm almost tempted to read this topic and see what you people could possibly be discussing for 35 pages now. I hope it's whether it's a fact or not.

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    you stumped me a bit here, so i had to go ponder. nice post. i agree with you personally, of course. teen pregnancy, especially, is a serious problem in small town USA, which is part of the reason not working right now for me is sometimes excruciating (cuz i'm a midwife and love working with women, especially young impressionable ones who need sincere guidance in these realms).

    but i guess i just don't believe you (society) can tie marriage with having children anymore. it just doesn't work. the people that wait to have children after x,y, or z are the responsible types that have those intrinsic values already. they are probably the same people that would be great parents, and responsible, whether they married or not.........being 'married,' per se, wasn't what made everything work, in other words.

    and the young, irresponsible and naive parents who are a burden on society, as you know, will not delay sexual relations for marriage or values reasons, when they lack all but basic survival skills in their homelife, many times. no matter how much government funding or propaganda is spewed forth, sex will happen, as it always has.



    The young women I know were not their teens but in their early twenties when the pregnancies occured and in their mid twenties and early thirties when the second occured.

    Typical unwed mother is not a teen, study says - The Boston Globe

    None of my family or in-law family live in small town America, they all live in major metropolitian areas. They came from homes where they were certainly taught more than just basic survivial. One was a straight A student in high school. One's mother has a master's degree in education and teaches college night school.


    linking the two (marriage and children) together might work in say, a sub-community setting, like a community that shared a religious network, a church. or a close-knit network of families or friends who met regularly and shared the same philosophies. but expecting that the general public can unite those two concepts together is like expecting *insert cool analogy here NTs, please*, which just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we all may want it to.

    again, the people who would wait to have sex until they are married are obviously already value driven and would probably do what it takes for their offspring no matter if they got married or not. and there are so many who have, for whatever reason, written marriage off for themselves, as the article attests. so you aren't going to sound plausible to them talking about waiting to have kids until marriage, if they already feel or know they have no desire to get married. you must appeal to these people on a different plane, one that speaks their language.

    the answer? i dunno. birth control is pretty easy and available; withdrawal, as ivy so aptly called attention to; condoms.

    then you get into the tough stuff like 'strengthening family values' etc., which the bush admin was all about. i think studies showed the pregnancy rate actually increased when the focus shifted in schools from birth control counseling to abstinence education....but don't crucify me on this. *cringe*

    i'm not sure of the answers for society, but i do believe you are wasting your breath postulating to society not to have sex until you are married
    .




    I am not personally postulating to anyone to wait until marriage for sex.


    I am not saying that people should always be married to have babies.

    I think a large part of the issue is more that it has now become acceptable to get pregnant before one is financially ready and before one has partnered with someone else who is also stable.

    Edit: But I am admittedly hardlined on the subject of thinking abput one's readiness and sutiability before deciding to be a parent. I think most voluntarily childfree people have a higher expectation of this than the rest of the population.

  9. #349
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I can add my experience to this ..

    I have 2 children aged 14 and 12, i am 30 yrs old so you do the math. I had both children with the same bloke. I found out i was pregnant both times and just took my responsibilty seriously and got on with it. Obviously i was young but i never once thought about marrying the kids father.

    My parents divorced when i was five. Years later my mum told me she couldn't stay with my dad (complete control freak) as he didnt make her happy and that if she was unhappy then how could me and my brother be happy. Just recently i was speaking to my father and he told me that the problems with society are due to the family breakdown and that if he had the choice he would of stayed with my mum in a loveless marriage so both me and my bro had both mum and dad around. *sigh*

    Now i see both arguments being a parent myself. I stayed with the kids father for 5 years, i needed to end the relationship for my sanity (physical and mental abuse) even though i believed doing so would set the wheels in motion as it did my parents and i didnt want that, but i was left with little options. I always believed that kids should have both parents present in their lives prefably everyday but if not well spending time with 'dad' for a few hours a week was better than nothing. It seemed he didn't want this responsibilty and started to mess the children around. I am not going to let my kids heads be screwed up and later in life treat their own children the same as 'dad' did to them so i severed all ties with the man. The children haven't seen him now for 6 years and they are doing OK for it.

    Now as a mother this is the only thing that hurts me and has to make me question myself and my actions.
    My children had their dad in their lives for 8 and 6 years, i then met my bloke who became my husband and he became 'stepdad' for 6.5 years and now he is gone (his choice) ..
    The boys only have me now and thats not a bad thing as they are such good kids who have impeccable manners but they don't have a father figure.

    My eldest recently asked me 'Who is going to be our dad now' .. That is something you never want to hear your child say. How do you answer that.

    I can not change what has happened. Is it my actions that has caused all this. I can sit here and answer a 100 answers either way. It doesn't change anything as i can't change other people's action. I wish we lived in a time when people took their vows seriously and didn't run off when something took their fancy, that if you got your partner/wife pregnant, you stuck around. That children benefited from 2 parents in the home. But then 50 odd years ago, well people still had problems, they were just not broadcasted as readily as they are today.

    That's it.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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