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  1. #311
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Definitely, but for many of us, marriage itself precludes that from being a possibility.
    I've known quite a few wonderful people who could not function in marriage. I have an ISTJ elderly aunt who couldn't function in that way, got divorced, and was ridiculed back in her day which led to her depression. She remained friends with her ex throughout life. Before they divorced he told her she needed to find him another wife. This is not because either were bad people. She lived the rest of her life as a recluse doing record keeping for employment.

    I had two mentors who had attempted marriage, but it was also not a good fit. They were brilliant, creative people. The female mentor (INTJ) was strongly opinionated, independent, and preferred life on her own. She owns a cabin where she spends her off seasons.

    My mother divorced out of an intensely abusive situation in which the courts did not give her or her children the reasonable amount of credit in such a situation. She never remarried. She once said that for every marriage she has ever seen, there is nothing there that she wishes for herself. She is an ISFP.

    In other cases I have seen the expectations of marriage have a negative emotional effect on perfectly wonderful individuals. If you do not function in the prescribed manner for marriage, you are criticized or seen as less of a person. Some people need significant amounts of personal space - more than most marriages can accommodate. Some people just don't enjoy the sense of being attached to another person until one of them dies. Other people are strongly independently minded and have a particular way they like to do things and see no point of compromising on every detail of life with someone else. Some people are so devoted to their work that there is not time or energy left for a spouse (and before you criticize these people consider that one of them will probably cure cancer. ) What I have mentioned here is the tip of the ice-berg in terms of how some people can't fit into the social structure of a marriage. The actual institution of marriage is problematic and at times degrading to these people.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #312
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure "no one would hold the desire for solitude or autonomy against [you]" if you were a man. Men are characterized as "commitment-phobes" all the time for that exact same thing. It's true that as a rule people expect men to roam moreso than women, though.

    I agree with you that if you're making mate choices for practical reasons only, there's bound to be unhappiness down the road. I just don't think it's the fault of marriage as an institution, which still seems to work for most people who choose it. But, like toonia, I'm not in the business of advocating marriage for all people.

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    And truth be told, I really really need time alone. The kind of time you can't get when you share a bed with someone every night.
    I hear that. I don't know what I would do if I had married someone who insisted on being all up in my face whenever we're together. My brother once teased me that life at my house "is probably each of you in a separate room, doing a separate quiet activity," but that's often exactly what we do.

    And I don't think it's written in stone that married people have to share a bed. My parents don't. My guess is it's the embarrassed secret of many happily married couples. Again, not trying to convince you you need to get married. But many people have this picture of what a marriage is supposed to be like and it's not necessarily so. It can be like whatever the couple wants it to be like.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not so sure "no one would hold the desire for solitude or autonomy against [you]" if you were a man. Men are characterized as "commitment-phobes" all the time for that exact same thing. It's true that as a rule people expect men to roam moreso than women, though.

    I agree with you that if you're making mate choices for practical reasons only, there's bound to be unhappiness down the road. I just don't think it's the fault of marriage as an institution, which still seems to work for most people who choose it. But, like toonia, I'm not in the business of advocating marriage for all people.
    Kant, Hume, Schopenhauer, Wittgenstein, Kierkegaard, Newton, Leibniz, Rousseau and Locke all never married. There were all held in high esteem during their lives, as men who devoted themselves to learning and knowledge. They were not seen as commitment-phobic.

    Also, what else could I, being me, base my decisions on? For me, there is no reason that isn't a practical one and sadly, that puts marriage out of the running, simply because there's no practical reason for it. That's not to say I don't make plenty of mistakes, but they don't occur as a result of feeling but as the result of faulty logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I've known quite a few wonderful people who could not function in marriage. I have an ISTJ elderly aunt who couldn't function in that way, got divorced, and was ridiculed back in her day which led to her depression. She remained friends with her ex throughout life. Before they divorced he told her she needed to find him another wife. This is not because either were bad people. She lived the rest of her life as a recluse doing record keeping for employment.

    I had two mentors who had attempted marriage, but it was also not a good fit. They were brilliant, creative people. The female mentor (INTJ) was strongly opinionated, independent, and preferred life on her own. She owns a cabin where she spends her off seasons.

    My mother divorced out of an intensely abusive situation in which the courts did not give her or her children the reasonable amount of credit in such a situation. She never remarried. She once said that for every marriage she has ever seen, there is nothing there that she wishes for herself. She is an ISFP.

    In other cases I have seen the expectations of marriage have a negative emotional effect on perfectly wonderful individuals. If you do not function in the prescribed manner for marriage, you are criticized or seen as less of a person. Some people need significant amounts of personal space - more than most marriages can accommodate. Some people just don't enjoy the sense of being attached to another person until one of them dies. Other people are strongly independently minded and have a particular way they like to do things and see no point of compromising on every detail of life with someone else. Some people are so devoted to their work that there is not time or energy left for a spouse (and before you criticize these people consider that one of them will probably cure cancer. ) What I have mentioned here is the tip of the ice-berg in terms of how some people can't fit into the social structure of a marriage. The actual institution of marriage is problematic and at times degrading to these people.
    Thank you

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Kant, Hume, Schopenhauer, Wittgenstein, Kierkegaard, Newton, Leibniz, Rousseau and Locke all never married. There were all held in high esteem during their lives, as men who devoted themselves to learning and knowledge. They were not seen as commitment-phobic.
    Both Kierkegaard and Rousseau had to face being ostracised from society during their latter years. Rousseau is known to have had a few illegitimate children. Kierkegaard had to endure social gossip concerning his breakup with Regine Olsen.

  5. #315
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Kant, Hume, Schopenhauer, Wittgenstein, Kierkegaard, Newton, Leibniz, Rousseau and Locke all never married. There were all held in high esteem during their lives, as men who devoted themselves to learning and knowledge. They were not seen as commitment-phobic.
    They may not be thought of that way through the lens of history, but I'm willing to bet that in their time, their mothers wished they would get married and give them some grandchildren.

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Also, what else could I, being me, base my decisions on? For me, there is no reason, that isn't a practical one. That's not to say I don't make plenty of mistakes, but they don't occur as a result of feeling but as the result of faulty logic.
    Nothing else. Which is why I'm not trying to convince you to get married. I'm just saying that marriage itself is not sullied by not being right for you. Kind of like how parenthood is still a valid choice and a noble endeavor for many of us, despite being not right for some people. I would never try to convince a childfree person that they just didn't know what they were missing, why don't they have some kids already. But if a childfree person argues that having children is unethical I will defend parenting as a valid and positive thing. Provided it's entered into willingly and skillfully. Kind of like marriage.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Both Kierkegaard and Rousseau had to face being ostracised from society during their latter years. Rousseau is known to have had a few illegitimate children. Kierkegaard had to endure social gossip concerning his breakup with Regine Olsen.
    Rousseau was ostracized because he nutted out. He spent over two decades with the same woman, and never married her. They had several babies, all of which were left at orphanages, during the period in which he was the "belle" at everyone's ball. Kierkegaard's breakup was not the source of his ostracization, his attack on religion was. But hey nice try.

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    They may not be thought of that way through the lens of history, but I'm willing to bet that in their time, their mothers wished they would get married and give them some grandchildren.



    Nothing else. Which is why I'm not trying to convince you to get married. I'm just saying that marriage itself is not sullied by not being right for you. Kind of like how parenthood is still a valid choice and a noble endeavor for many of us, despite being not right for some people. I would never try to convince a childfree person that they just didn't know what they were missing, why don't they have some kids already. But if a childfree person argues that having children is unethical I will defend parenting as a valid and positive thing. Provided it's entered into willingly and skillfully. Kind of like marriage.
    I know you're not. I haven't taken anything you've said in that way. My bothering with this thread hasn't been about me, and what I want, anymore than the childhood obesity participation was. I just think it's foolhardy for people to make claims about how wonderful marriage is, and ascribe the entire decline of western civilization to the divorce rate. I think people should be able to do whatever is necessary to keep things running as smoothly as possible. I have been very blessed in terms of my fertility and health. I've also really enjoyed motherhood. I don't think it's good or right for any woman in a similar position to feel that she must be married to have this experience and do right by her children. Some of us really do more harm to our children in accepting this tripe and trying to make ourselves fit into the mold created by some childless, unmarried man. Walking around in a daze year after year, hating the life you have, cannot be beneficial to the children you're trying to raise.

  8. #318
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    So I should get married to trap a man who wouldn't ordinarily want to be with me?
    how do you know that he really wants to be with you unless you get married?

    if hes not prepared to get up in front of his entire social circle and make this commitment, how serious is he?

    Its good to remember that power in relationships always lies with the person with the faster exit stratedgy. When someone gets married, they are basically giving up that power, to a degree. If they arent willing to give up that power, how serious are they?

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    how do you know that he really wants to be with you unless you get married?

    if hes not prepared to get up in front of his entire social circle and make this commitment, how serious is he?

    Its good to remember that power in relationships always lies with the person with the faster exit stratedgy. When someone gets married, they are basically giving up that power, to a degree. If they arent willing to give up that power, how serious are they?
    Bingo. +1
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #320
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    if hes not prepared to get up in front of his entire social circle and make this commitment, how serious is he?
    Yah, I totally tried this. I was all "if you don't sleep with me, you obviously don't want to be with me", and she was all "No, not yet" and I was all "Well, there you go, you obviously don't care". So I dumped her there. No point investing time in someone when they just are ready to commit.

    Partial sarcasm aside, marriage does carry the implied 'business' contract of sharing the burden of raising kids. Useful, for sure. Doesn't require marriage, sure, but marriage is the standard contract used.

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