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  1. #201
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    I believe childbirth before marriage should be illegal. Even if it's unfair to the woman.
    Meh, I think childbirth before putting a security deposit on the child's future - probably about 150,000 in today's dollars - should be illegal. Even if it is unfair to women.


    As far as marriage is better, regression will show that shared child rearing (less load per person) and higher resources are the primary reasons for it (IIRC) being better. This can be contrasted with Asian cultures where children are raised by entire families.

    The opposite, showing that unmarried is inferior, needs to be adjusted for personalities of people who cannot cope in marriage as well as the impact of becoming separated due to becoming pregnant (ie: unwilling to focus). A rather complicated situation.

    Marriage is a great signal for showing the parents dependability. It's inherent value is... somewhat lower.

  2. #202
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As far as marriage is better, regression will show that shared child rearing (less load per person) and higher resources are the primary reasons for it (IIRC) being better. This can be contrasted with Asian cultures where children are raised by entire families.

    The opposite, showing that unmarried is inferior, needs to be adjusted for personalities of people who cannot cope in marriage as well as the impact of becoming separated due to becoming pregnant (ie: unwilling to focus). A rather complicated situation.

    Marriage is a great signal for showing the parents dependability. It's inherent value is... somewhat lower.
    I think healthy marriages have great socialization value for children that best teaches them about happy and productive male-female relationships, in a way that trial-and-error or second-hand experience simply can't do. All else being equal (which is never actually the case), children are better off being raised as children of married couples, so I would (subjectively) rank its inherent value as very high. That said, divorce or single-parenthood is better for children than unhealthy marriages, even if their material conditions are poorer, for similar reasons.

  3. #203
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think healthy marriages have great socialization value for children that best teaches them about happy and productive male-female relationships, in a way that trial-and-error or second-hand experience simply can't do. All else being equal (which is never actually the case), children are better off being raised as children of married couples, so I would (subjectively) rank its inherent value as very high. That said, divorce or single-parenthood is better for children than unhealthy marriages, even if their material conditions are poorer, for similar reasons.
    Mostly agreed. I'm not sure that divorce is better though. Emotionally it is probably better in the long run (I can attest to that), but if it is primarily just resources (time and wealth) that have the influence, then divorce can be net negative despite the negative emotions.

    That, and both kids and parents don't handle change very well. That can be an additional destructive force.

    That underlies the major problem with marriage - it's a good "business relationship" for children who don't really care about their parents emotional well being. They care about the stability (read: resources, security, etc.). The majority of marriages are unhappy (adding both divorces + those that don't divorce), so it's tough to support marriage as a standard for raising children otherwise.

  4. #204
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    In a society that values freedom and equality of all its members, there is a respect for that personal boundary that determines how one chooses to live. If this means the individual values marriage above all else, then the implication is that it is not the right of another member to impede on their lifestyle. If an individual does not value marriage, then this means it is not the right of another member to impede on this decision.

    Valuing marriage as an ideal for they way people should live is a perfectly reasonable personal choice. It is not reasonable to impose this value set on another person regardless of when or if they choose to have offspring. This is important even if their motivation is not acceptable by your personal values. It is important even if it results in consequences of which you disapprove. Valuing individual rights and freedom necessitates this position towards others regardless of their gender, religion, race, values, or number of offspring.

    Having a clear sense of that boundary is the equivalent of having respect for others. (i.e. respect = 1. something considered to have certain rights or privileges, 2. to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with 3. to show regard or consideration for, etc.) Edit: Simply put, if you think you know better than another person how they should live their life, you might care about the person, but you do not have respect for that person. If you assume you know better than women how they should live their lives, you do not have respect for women (the same is true for any category of people)
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #205
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Can things be different and yet no better or worse? Seems unlikely to me.



    It is related. The same attitudes that have led people to be less loyal have resulted in the decline of marriage. We are more selfish and less loyal than ever before in history, without a doubt.
    Oh, bullshit. Are you serious? If anything, we expect more from marriage than we ever had and are not willing to settle. But people have always been disloyal. Men and women have affairs, always have, probably always will .. lie about money, leave wet towels on the floor, whatever. Have you actually BEEN married? Because your ideas about it seem extremely idealistic. For women, and statistics show this, it turns out to be twice the housework, and although it can significantly increase her income (also often does not), if and when he dumps her for a trophy wife, she and her children will be plunged into poverty.

    Getting married is no great solution.

    And surely you're joking when you say women should make marriage a prerequisite to "getting in their pants." What century were you born in??

  6. #206
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    I believe childbirth before marriage should be illegal. Even if it's unfair to the woman.
    Do you prefer stoning or mandatory abortions?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Do you prefer stoning or mandatory abortions?
    His compost smelled funny. I got a whiff and decided not to bite.

    Happy debating!
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #208
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    ...I see the same thing happening today. A woman can raise a child herself and make her own wages. Or she can marry and have a child, and augment her wages, but then she has to take care of her husband too. What's a girl to do?
    Ummmm this is a little condescending. In this day and age there are quite a few men who put in their fair share, if not more of the daily domestic duties. The scales have tilted in both directions, women are working, and men are doing laundry + changing diapers.

    Do not even try to paint the picture that men are still golfing on the weekends and drinkin in the bars with their buddies after work each day as in the 1950s while dutiful wives slave away at the rance, caring for the kiddies, pressing their husband's shirts, and cokking dinner while waiting eagerly for him to get home, all while wearing her best.

    Plllllllll-ease.

  9. #209
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Oh, bullshit. Are you serious? If anything, we expect more from marriage than we ever had and are not willing to settle.
    I'm always serious. Unless I'm not. We should expect more from marriage. Why should we settle? What are we settling for?

    But people have always been disloyal. Men and women have affairs, always have, probably always will .. lie about money, leave wet towels on the floor, whatever.
    Not always have. Nor not always will. Some always will. Others never will.

    Have you actually BEEN married? Because your ideas about it seem extremely idealistic. For women, and statistics show this, it turns out to be twice the housework, and although it can significantly increase her income (also often does not), if and when he dumps her for a trophy wife, she and her children will be plunged into poverty.
    1. I've never been married. I've had a total of 12 years of cohabitation that have led me to my current point of view with respect to being pro-marriage.
    2. I am extremely idealistic. I went from idealism, to cynicism, back to idealism. If I get cynical again I will kill myself.

    Getting married is no great solution.
    Marriage is a symptom and a result of strong social cohesion.

    And surely you're joking when you say women should make marriage a prerequisite to "getting in their pants." What century were you born in??
    20th century.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #210
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    If I get cynical again I will kill myself.
    I think you have returned....to cynicism. Just a general observation.

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