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  1. #191
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    I believe childbirth before marriage should be illegal. Even if it's unfair to the woman.

  2. #192
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Love of one's offspring definitely involves this putting of someone else above you of which you speak. Love of a mate involves no such thing. It's just an extension of friendship, based on respect and warmth. Putting your mate above yourself is not virtuous, it's stupid. I certainly would be appalled by a man who did that to me, or expected that sort of thing from me. As partners we should stand on equal footing, next to one another.
    You can't put your mate above yourself and them do the same for you? That's what love is. Is love stupid? I've never felt like my marriage was an extension of friendship. The warmth and respect existed long before we were married or even lovers. What would be appalling to me is if my husband didn't put me first and expect me to do the same. I said for a long time that I would never get married again. He never pushed it. We mutually decided to do so. I don't think he would have wanted to had he not respected and loved me more than other women. I know I wouldn't have married him for the same reasons. I put him above me. He puts me above himself. The children are equally held. Loved and cared for but in a different way. They are not on the level my marriage is. They are not sacrificed for a man in my eyes. They are empowered with more choices, more resources and more freedom to be their own people than they would be had I chose to stay single or just live with him. It also shows the children that we have a commitment they might want to consider at some time. You can call that old fashioned or stupid or anything else. I call it intelligent. And I don't even have to do the dishes.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    You can't put your mate above yourself and them do the same for you? That's what love is. Is love stupid?
    No, I can't. It's lovely that you do. Your definition of love doesn't jive with mine. I don't think anyone should be put above one's self, with the exception of her offspring. Would I die for my children? Without batting an eye. Would I die for a mate? Not a chance in hell. If you're happy with the relationship you have, that's great. It's not a model I would like to follow. I am very grateful that I live in a time and place where I can say no thanks and do just fine (in my case a whole lot better even) without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I've never felt like my marriage was an extension of friendship. The warmth and respect existed long before we were married or even lovers. What would be appalling to me is if my husband didn't put me first and expect me to do the same. I said for a long time that I would never get married again. He never pushed it. We mutually decided to do so. I don't think he would have wanted to had he not respected and loved me more than other women. I know I wouldn't have married him for the same reasons. I put him above me. He puts me above himself. The children are equally held. Loved and cared for but in a different way. They are not on the level my marriage is. They are not sacrificed for a man in my eyes. They are empowered with more choices, more resources and more freedom to be their own people than they would be had I chose to stay single or just live with him. It also shows the children that we have a commitment they might want to consider at some time. You can call that old fashioned or stupid or anything else. I call it intelligent. And I don't even have to do the dishes.

    Putting you above all other women is not the same as putting you above himself. I would hope a mate would put me above other potential mates.

    Marriage offered neither me, nor my children, any benefits. It wasn't necessary financially, it destroyed my freedom, and it in no way broadened their choices. Commitment, just for the sake of commitment, strikes me as lemming-like. If I have a solid reason to stay committed to someone or something, I have no problem with it. I am committed to my children, my career, my own family. I do not have any desire to see my children grow up with the belief that it's good or right to remain committed to someone, or something, just because commitment is supposedly a virtuous thing. Marriage doesn't necessarily equate with commitment anyway. All it means is that when you find out your partner isn't holding up his end of the "commitment", or you realize you no longer want it, you'll have to spend a lot more time, energy, and money trying to get out of it. People think that somehow bestowing the formalization of marriage on a relationship will help to circumvent this problem. What actually ends up happening is people get involved in all kinds of other sordid activity (lying, cheating, manipulating the lovers they maintain outside of the relationship) and then divorce anyway. I, personally, would prefer to avoid all of this and just keep open the option of walking away when things are no longer working. Autonomy ranks way above commitment for me, and I hope the same will hold true for my children.

  4. #194
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Autonomy is an illusion. We need and depend on other people. It will always be thus. We can either recognize it and build wholesome relationships or we can retreat and lick our wounds and convince ourselves of our own primacy against the rest of the world. But, in my opinion, this desire for autonomy is often the result of other feelings.

    Also, what is it that makes you committed to your children and not your beloved? Marriage itself cannot destroy your freedom, unless of course you mean your freedom to be entirely selfish, in which case your children destroyed this freedom as well. No one who loved you would want to destroy your freedom. They would want to help you achieve your freedom.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Autonomy is an illusion. We need and depend on other people. It will always be thus. We can either recognize it and build wholesome relationships or we can retreat and lick our wounds and convince ourselves of our own primacy against the rest of the world. But, in my opinion, this desire for autonomy is often the result of other feelings.

    Also, what is it that makes you committed to your children and not your beloved? Marriage itself cannot destroy your freedom, unless of course you mean your freedom to be entirely selfish, in which case your children destroyed this freedom as well. No one who loved you would want to destroy your freedom. They would want to help you achieve your freedom.
    You're probably right. Just the same, I'd rather live with that illusion than the one we call commitment. Feeling autonomous is good enough for me.

    Guess I wasn't loved then. He sure did a darn good job pretending for that decade though. In fact he did such a great job feigning his affection that he let me out of the deal very graciously and has been a terrific co-parent and friend ever since. He's remarried, with a new baby of his own, and seems very happy.

    I've never felt my children impinged on my freedom. They are extensions of me, as well as their own people, so their well-being is my well-being.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    You're probably right. Just the same, I'd rather live with that illusion than the one we call commitment. Feeling autonomous is good enough for me.
    So, control is very important to you? I can't really imagine why anyone would find commitment so onerous. Can you explain more about that? What is it that you do not find good about commitment? Just that it represents a loss of freedom to you?

    I've never felt my children impinged on my freedom. They are extensions of me, as well as their own people, so their well-being is my well-being.
    Couldn't you feel this way with a man? Or, a mate of some sort? If you don't mind me asking, were you sexually compatible with your ex? I think sexual compatibility / chemistry is like 70% of why things work or do not work.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #197
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    ive met plenty of couples in europe that decided to have kids before marrying. are they still together, not all, of course not. but considering that over half of US marriages fail, wahts the difference?

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    So, control is very important to you? I can't really imagine why anyone would find commitment so onerous. Can you explain more about that? What is it that you do not find good about commitment? Just that it represents a loss of freedom to you?



    Couldn't you feel this way with a man? Or, a mate of some sort? If you don't mind me asking, were you sexually compatible with your ex? I think sexual compatibility / chemistry is like 70% of why things work or do not work.
    Please keep in mind my earlier post regarding commitment. I have no problem committing to something I find it reasonable to commit to. I've raised my kids, nursed my mother through cancer and finished multiple degrees. I just don't see the point of the commitment involved in marriage. There's nothing in it that appeals to me, and, yes again, it is about me. I am the only person that has been, and will continue to be, with me for the entire span of my existence. Feeling compelled to do what others, such as yourself and some of the other 'good' souls on this board, believe to be right is what made me stay as long as I did (I had a feeling it was a crap deal by the third year). I'm not drinking that kool-aid anymore. If you all are happy with it, rock on.

    And the chemistry was good, great for the first couple years. Honestly, that wouldn't have been a reason to stay, or go, though. I have had some amazing physical relationships over the years (that continued to be amazing throughout their duration), but even those ended.

    Also, I never said I thought I couldn't be with a man or felt (my illusion of) autonomy would automatically be destroyed by being in a relationship. I said I couldn't be married.

  9. #199
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I wouldn't put anyone elses needs above my own either. But in a relationship I rather try to give myself as well as my partner what we need to the best of my ability.

    "You, yourself, as much as anyone else in this world deserves your love and attention."

    Which basicly means equality.

    If something in a relationship doesn't work, and continueing would mean that one or both would loose their sense of satisfaction or sense of freedom. Then for both it should be best to split up and look for new things. So if you are in a relationship you don't wish to be a part off. Then yes, that is an infringement of yoru freedom.

    But I do believe it's very possible to feel free in a relationship that does work.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    It seems to me that marriage was about the maintenence, transfer and increase of accumulated assets. If a woman's value was in her fecundity and dowry then her intended man was valued by his possessions and his likely ability over time to gather more. Children born of this (legally recognized) union would hopefully breed "up" and become possesors of even more assets that the sanctioning Church and government would avail themselves of. Bastards fall outside the benefits of this type of system....they inherit nothing and consequently are a threat to the system. If your daughter weds a bastard then what are the prosects for the growth of wealth or your reputation as a manager of your fortune now squandered away on love? The bastard was marginalized, they stood outside institutions for what are essentially economic reaons. I wonder if you even had political standing? Of course if your family was at the top of the economic heap a little Bastard now and then was just the cost of doing business.

    That is not the case any longer....especially now with DNA technology. The word bastard is really obselete (within our society at least). Born out of wedlock? So what? We know who your daddy is...Society will take care of you and your self-esteem. You won't end up discarded in a ditch or sent off in shame to scrape your way up from a state of non-entity.

    There are many people in Thailand, right now who are Stateless. The are not recognized as human beings; they live a legal non-existence....but they do exist to labor and feed the (child) sex trades...I wonder if their historical western counterparts often found themselves conveniently driven into the ranks of the exploited?
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

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