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  1. #151
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    should we base our educational system then on the capabilities of an einstein, a newton, a feynman, etc... these people and all the people you mentioned are EXCEPTIONS. as well, you can bring up a number of exceptions to the idea that marriage is overall beneficial to children -- the bad apple parents or children.

    the argument i'm making, and others as well, that marraige is ON THE WHOLE a good institution has been empirically proven and should not be undermined simply because armchair sociologists view marriage as some arbitrary and outdated institution robbing people of their freedom to choose a lifestyle that fits their "needs."
    No of course not. My argument is, and has always been, that each family should do what is right for them. Marriage, as a rule, isn't always the best choice or the healthiest choice. I think having the freedom to control your destiny and make positive decisions will benefit society more than just an arbitrary rule which may or may not apply to everyone. I just don't think people should be demonized for not walking along the same path as everyone else. That's all.

  2. #152
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    All of these things are possible with marriage and traditional roles, so I don't get what you mean. Women did the choosing. They always have, until now.

    Marriage is about the team, not just one person. Again, all I hear is me, me, me. I'm gonna get what I want, when I want it, the way I want it. How does that work with another person in the mix?


    Women did the choosing? Me me me? Traditional roles?

    You are being deliberately obtuse.

    Ok, we're done here. For real this time.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    All I hear is me, me, me. You're telling me if you met the man of your dreams and it would make him more happy to be married than not married, you would stick to your guns and not marry simply because it's pointless to you? It would not be important what would make your beloved happy? Marriage does not mean becoming something you're not. When you become a wife, you do not change. It just means you're married.

    People have always had the option of not marrying. But, let's not exalt this attitude of non-commitment as some virtue.
    I don't think of it as a virtue, I think of it as a very fortunate state of affairs. It most certainly is about me. I have to live with my choices. Why in god's name would I put my beloved's happiness above my own?? I'm happy to have a partner to share a life with, but that's as an equal. I will not give myself to anyone. Men have no power anymore. We don't need them for resources, we don't need them for security, we don't need them to guide our ratiocinative processes, and we don't even need them to make babies (thank you IVF!). If a man wants to see his DNA get into the next generation, however, he still needs to find a willing uterus/host. So why, again, would a sane, healthy, educated woman sign on for this joyous thing we call marriage?

  4. #154
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post


    Women did the choosing? Me me me? Traditional roles?

    Ok, we're done here. For real this time.
    Yes, with humans as with most animals, the female of the species has veto power over the sexual relationship. After all, she has the more precious biological resources and must therefore be the most selective. Whereas the male creates a virtually inexhaustible supply of genetic material.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #155
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I don't think of it as a virtue, I think of it as a very fortunate state of affairs. It most certainly is about me. I have to live with my choices. Why in god's name would I put my beloved's happiness above my own?? I'm happy to have a partner to share a life with, but that's as an equal. I will not give myself to anyone. Men have no power anymore. We don't need them for resources, we don't need them for security, we don't need them to guide our ratiocinative processes, and we don't even need them to make babies (thank you IVF!). If a man wants to see his DNA get into the next generation, however, he still needs to find a willing uterus/host. So why, again, would a sane, healthy, educated woman sign on for this joyous thing we call marriage?
    What does love mean to you? Seriously. This is exactly the very definition of love: to put someone above yourself. The best part is, if two people both feel this way, it just works! It's reciprocal.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    It's a sweet deal for a guy, he does half of what his predecessors did while we get to carry three quarters of the weight of maintaining a household.
    This is also a part of what I was talking about. It's way too early to stand up and shout for a victory for women and their gains.

    Even when you do end up marrying someone who does not expect you to work, just knowing that there is whole word is out there that you could be a part of makes it incredibly hard to find staying home and making babies a totally fulfilling experience. But, hey, that's just me.
    I know several women who have been happy to be stay at home mothers and devote their time and energy to raising their children. They seem to be connected to the world and a part of it, they aren't recluses.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    My point exactly. Also, staying home with children while they're young doesn't mean you're to be neglected either.
    I was happy to stay home with my children when they were very young...but why would I need to be married to do that? I was married but, in retrospect, it's quite clear that that was never necessary.

  8. #158
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Yes, with humans as with most animals, the female of the species has veto power over the sexual relationship. After all, she has the more precious biological resources and must therefore be the most selective. Whereas the male creates a virtually inexhaustible supply of genetic material.
    Fathers gave their daughters to men - and these daughters had the choice?
    Riiiiiight, keep dreaming.
    Seriously, why don't you research the topic of reproductive rights before you write about things you know nothing about.

  9. #159
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Fathers gave their daughters to men - and these daughters had the choice?
    Riiiiiight, keep dreaming.
    Seriously, why don't you research the topic of reproductive rights before you write about things you know nothing about.
    I think you underestimate the influence and power of your female antecedents.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #160
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think you underestimate the influence and power of your female antecedents.
    And I think you have your head in the sand.

    Agree to disagree?

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