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  1. #141
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Men used to beg women to marry them, now women beg to be allowed to be baby mamas. (When they aren't begging to be a no-strings service station)

    There's really something wrong with that picture. I don't think it's time to stand up and cheer for the woman's victory yet...
    Exactly. Women are not better off now. They just have less of a right to expect anything from men. We are both poorer for it.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  2. #142
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And when the hell has that ever happened? You keep talking wistfully about days gone past and I'm letting you know that they weren't glory days for everyone... So men have to work a little harder now - tough shit.
    Hah. Men don't work harder now trust me. It is so easy to get laid now. It's even easier to get married. Men have all the power and none of the responsibility. Unfortunately, this sucks for men and women. That responsibility is what makes men strong.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Point is, marriage is what you make of it ultimately. If you view marriage as a burdensome, unnecessary arrangement, the end of your fun... you probably should not get married.
    I certainly didn't think that going into it. I realized it was a source of pain for me after about ten years of it. I'm not terribly interested in having "fun" so that was never an issue, but the lop-sided set of rules got old. As women we're still expected to maintain all the conventions of our jobless, uneducated predecessors but now we're also supposed to bring home at least half of the bacon as well. It's a sweet deal for a guy, he does half of what his predecessors did while we get to carry three quarters of the weight of maintaining a household. Even when you do end up marrying someone who does not expect you to work, just knowing that there is whole word is out there that you could be a part of makes it incredibly hard to find staying home and making babies a totally fulfilling experience. But, hey, that's just me.

  4. #144
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Exactly. Women are not better off now. They just have less of a right to expect anything from men. We are both poorer for it.
    I think that judgment is best left to the individual. I don't need or appreciate you or anyone dictating what is better for me...

  5. #145
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I certainly didn't think that going into it. I realized it was a source of pain for me after about ten years of it. I'm not terribly interested in having "fun" so that was never an issue, but the lop-sided set of rules got old. As women we're still expected to maintain all the conventions of our jobless, uneducated predecessors but now we're also supposed to bring home at least half of the bacon as well. It's a sweet deal for a guy, he does half of what his predecessors did while we get to carry three quarters of the weight of maintaining a household. Even when you do end up marrying someone who does not expect you to work, just knowing that there is whole word is out there that you could be a part of makes it incredibly hard to find staying home and making babies a totally fulfilling experience. But, hey, that's just me.
    +1

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I certainly didn't think that going into it. I realized it was a source of pain for me after about ten years of it. I'm not terribly interested in having "fun" so that was never an issue, but the lop-sided set of rules got old. As women we're still expected to maintain all the conventions of our jobless, uneducated predecessors but now we're also supposed to bring home at least half of the bacon as well. It's a sweet deal for a guy, he does half of what his predecessors did while we get to carry three quarters of the weight of maintaining a household. Even when you do end up marrying someone who does not expect you to work, just knowing that there is whole word is out there that you could be a part of makes it incredibly hard to find staying home and making babies a totally fulfilling experience. But, hey, that's just me.
    My point exactly. Also, staying home with children while they're young doesn't mean you're to be neglected either.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I think that judgment is best left to the individual. I don't need or appreciate you or anyone dictating what is better for me...
    How could I possibly dictate to you? Throw off those shackles of male oppression.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  8. #148
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Hah. Men don't work harder now trust me. It is so easy to get laid now. It's even easier to get married. Men have all the power and none of the responsibility. Unfortunately, this sucks for men and women. That responsibility is what makes men strong.
    If you equate power with the ability to get laid, then that's why we don't see eye to eye. I equate power with having the freedom to pursue an education, raise a family when I am ready to, be able to provide for that family, choose a partner that I want to be with and not have to be with. Things you can easily take for granted. That is real power.

  9. #149
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    If that's all you took out of what I wrote, then there's nothing more I can say about this.
    should we base our educational system then on the capabilities of an einstein, a newton, a feynman, etc... these people and all the people you mentioned are EXCEPTIONS. as well, you can bring up a number of exceptions to the idea that marriage is overall beneficial to children -- the bad apple parents or children.

    the argument i'm making, and others as well, that marraige is ON THE WHOLE a valuable institution has been empirically proven. it should not be undermined simply because armchair sociologists view marriage as an arbitrary and outdated institution robbing people of their freedom to choose a lifestyle that fits their "needs."
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    If you equate power with the ability to get laid, then that's why we don't see eye to eye. I equate power with having the freedom to pursue an education, raise a family when I am ready to, be able to provide for that family, choose a partner that I want to be with and not have to be with. Things you can easily take for granted. That is real power.
    All of these things are possible with marriage and traditional roles, so I don't get what you mean. Women did the choosing. They always have, until now.

    Marriage is about the team, not just one person. Again, all I hear is me, me, me. I'm gonna get what I want, when I want it, the way I want it. How does that work with another person in the mix?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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