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  1. #121
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The value of the role of women as mothers is not in dispute. That is the one thing in agreement. The value of women in the world that society has often associated with the label, professional is possibly in dispute. Think of it like this: men are valuable as fathers, correct? But if that was the only role in which they were valued would that be a comprehensive way of viewing men?
    This is the way I see it:

    By pushing this concept of sameness (men and women having the same role or identical roles) as "equality" it has diminished marriage and the way men and women value EACH other. Both men and women are worse off today, but women are more worse off because they get stuck with the reproductive burden without any of the previous benefits. Men are no longer valued for their role, and women are no longer valued for their role. No one knows what to do. Everyone suffers. Everyone is in it alone.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a man or woman should be viewed only as a father or mother.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  2. #122
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    This is the way I see it:

    By pushing this concept of sameness (men and women having the same role or identical roles) as "equality" it has diminished marriage and the way men and women value EACH other. Both men and women are worse off today, but women are more worse off because they get stuck with the reproductive burden without any of the previous benefits. Men are no longer valued for their role, and women are no longer valued for their role. No one knows what to do. Everyone suffers. Everyone is in it alone.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a man or woman should be viewed only as a father or mother.
    The idea of equality is to produce the same opportunities for men and women. With the introduction of birth control, women can choose to not have children. Based on the statistics in the OP, half of the births out of wedlock are contained within a stable relationship. I can see aspects of your point, but can say that as a woman I am grateful to have more opportunities to develop intellectually and make choices about if, when, where, and with whom to have children. Overall, I see it as progress.

    Not that personal anecdotes are particularly relevant, but I am grateful for the choices I was able to make in this time in history which included not having children, but instead pursuing an intellectual career. I sometimes wish I had a child, but my mind was driven to pursue a particular course of study as it was a source of my best contribution. My mother taught kindergarten and her specialty was in early childhood education. She is a source of professional wisdom to me on a number of issues. My area is in the arts.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #123
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    What can I say, I'm a sucker for a direct challenge...

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    children born to married couples on the whole have better education, are more provided for in terms of material wealth, have role models for each gender, are more likely to be in the presence of one of their parents most of the time during their formative years thus ensuring at least some level of discipline w/o which it becomes easier for children to essentially grow up "wild."
    Perhaps, but marriage does not guarantee that children would be better educated, richer and less "wild". And you are under the assumption that if the parents aren't married, the father magically disappears into the night...

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    in single parent homes the parent naturally has to earn a living and in so doing creates a void in a young child's life that is going to be filled one way or another. in a lot of cases this void is filled by negative elements. in other words, kids don't just grow up "good." morality, good behavior, work ethic, culture does not just show up and i get the feeling that the people in this thread advocating the idea that marriage is essentially pointless or useless do no realize this or simply take it for granted.
    3 things wrong with this argument:
    - you assume that unmarried means single parent.
    - you assume that in a 2 parent household, one partner stays home.
    - you say that a child has no role model for work ethic. Most children I know of single parents actually help their parents in the household.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    single parents that wind up performing their role with flying colors are most definitely the exception to the rule. the value placed on marriage should not be based on such exceptions.
    The value should not exclude these examples either. There are unhealthy marriages and healthy single situations, and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    there are a lot of statistics on rates of crime, levels of education, and so on are in large part based on what sort of environment a person has growing up and as i mentioned above, marriage is has a definitively positive influence in all these areas.
    How? I believe the Menendez brothers had both parents in the home...

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    of course, divorce rates in the past were much lower because marriage was essentially held together for economic reasons. now, the primary reason for getting married is more and more becomming one of sentiment or "love" which is a far more fickle foundation upon which to base an institution such as marriage and a family. of course, that's not to say that basing a marriage on love is bad, just that it is not nearly as strong as economics (how that for NTism...)
    Marriages now are no more based on love than they were in the past. They have always been based on viability. Most often, you fall in love after having dated a person that meets your standards in the first place. In the past, a woman may have had to settle if she had no other suitors. Now, she can support herself and take her time in making a decision. Sorry if that sucks for you, but it's wonderful for me. Deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    you're ignoring the economic benefits of marriage: tax breaks and cost of divorce.
    I've ignored nothing. Monetary gain is no reason for anyone to be in a situation that they don't want to be in.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    once married you gain an economic incentive to stay married thus strengthening the already existing commitment.
    In my humble opinion, the incentive should be love. But whatever, I'll give you that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    of course, you could argue either that this economic incentive is insignificant or that sentiment is the only factor when evaluating commitment... you *could* argue those points but you would have to ignore reality while doing so
    Please explain how that is ignoring reality? Have you ever known anyone raised in a non traditional way? By grandparents, unwed committed parents, single parents? Would you look them in the eye and tell them that they are "wild" or don't practice "good behavior"?

    And as a shout out to all the board members that are single parents or have come from single parents, you are in good company: Barack Obama, Jamie Lee Curtis, Bill Cosby and George Washington, to name a few. Keep your head up and never settle. Good night.

  4. #124
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The idea of equality is to produce the same opportunities for men and women. With the introduction of birth control, women can choose to not have children. Based on the statistics in the OP, half of the births out of wedlock are contained within a stable relationship. I can see aspects of your point, but can say that as a woman I am grateful to have more opportunities to develop intellectually and make choices about if, when, where, and with whom to have children. Overall, I see it as progress.
    1. That's the idea of equality. The reality is there will never be equality among men and women as long as men and women are fundamentally different. There will never be equality in the NBA or anywhere where women are forced to compete where men are stronger. Similarly for men, there will never be equality where men are forced to compete where women are stronger. We are setting up women to fail.

    2. You've always had a choice over when, where, and with whom you have children with. Birth control has nothing to do with this.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #125
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And as a shout out to all the board members that are single parents or have come from single parents, you are in good company: Barack Obama, Jamie Lee Curtis, Bill Cosby and George Washington, to name a few. Keep your head up and never settle. Good night.
    Do you find it ironic that both Barack Obama and Bill Cosby are strong advocates for traditional marriage and family? Do you think this might be because of some of the experiences they had?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #126
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post

    2. You've always had a choice over when, where, and with whom you have children with. Birth control has nothing to do with this.
    I can't tell if you are joking with this or not. Why the hell do you think birth control was invented in the first place? Seriously, that is very naive and I'm shocked you would say that...

  7. #127
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Do you find it ironic that both Barack Obama and Bill Cosby are strong advocates for traditional marriage and family? Do you think this might be because of some of the experiences they had?
    If that's all you took out of what I wrote, then there's nothing more I can say about this.

  8. #128
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    1. That's the idea of equality. The reality is there will never be equality among men and women as long as men and women are fundamentally different. There will never be equality in the NBA or anywhere where women are forced to compete where men are stronger. Similarly for men, there will never be equality where men are forced to compete where women are stronger. We are setting up women to fail.
    How fundamentally different do you find the genders in areas other than physical strength? How do you compare male and female intelligence? How often will the difference in genders result in inequality in performance when they are provided with equal opportunity?

    My assumption is that it is an unknown entity until demonstrated. There is already proof to point to that women have the ability to compete with men. What has been demonstrated so far does not indicate the degree of fundamental differences that you imply with your statements.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  9. #129
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I can't tell if you are joking with this or not. Why the hell do you think birth control was invented in the first place? Seriously, that is very naive and I'm shocked you would say that...
    Birth control did not suddenly create reproductive choice. Women have always had choice. To say otherwise is to say they were powerless throughout human history and only until birth control did they attain power over their ability to have babies.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #130
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    Having spent well over half of my adult life married I can say, without equivocation, that the unmarried life has been far more interesting and pleasant than married life. I had a lovely husband (with whom I still share a great friendship) and a very nice home, but it was a horribly claustrophobic life that made me miserable. I still think it might be nice to find another partner some day, but I do not intend to ever tie the knot again. There is nothing for me, personally, to gain by marrying anyone. I know many women in similar situations. We have great co-parents with whom we share our child rearing responsibilities, but we have our own lives, identities, income, and interests. Marriage provides nothing we need or want.

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