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  1. #111
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexiphanic View Post
    I'm thinking this is more a response to high divorce rates (among other things, of course).

    People are waiting longer before getting hitched, if at all.
    The 50% rate of continued cohabitation for the unmarried couples with children sounds similar to the marriage statistics. There are likely differences in sample size or duration of years calculated. Still it is interesting.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #112
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Commitment can be independent of marriage
    you're ignoring the economic benefits of marriage: tax breaks and cost of divorce.

    once married you gain an economic incentive to stay married thus strengthening the already existing commitment.

    of course, you could argue either that this economic incentive is insignificant or that sentiment is the only factor when evaluating commitment... you *could* argue those points but you would have to ignore reality while doing so
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  3. #113
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    And then women wonder why they get treated like crap. You have to give respect to get respect.
    While there is some truth to that, you can chase that loop in circles back to a time where women were property. Statements like the one you just made open a serious can of worms.

    One reason marriage is not as fundamental an institution today is because the genders have more equal roles. Marriage as a historical institution implies some degree of ownership over the woman. It was a means of transferring inheritance property to remain within a family name. This is still implied by accepting the man's surname to become part of his family. Marriage is a more stable structure when one gender (historically women) is in a position of less power. In this way, they rely on the man for material resources and do not have a viable means to survive outside the support of a man. It has only been in the last few decades that the woman's role in marriage has approached equality. It is interesting that this is the same time frame where marriage as a social institution has less stability.

    It is more challenging for both parties to have the means to be independent, but make a daily choice to remain together. That kind of commitment is also intimidating to some people because it requires a high degree of attentiveness and does not remain intact as easily with power imbalances.

    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    you're ignoring the economic benefits of marriage: tax breaks and cost of divorce.
    When everyone is reasonable about dividing assets, it is around $300 to file.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #114
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Do it immigrant style. They are usually married. Or there is a father/mother figure present. Who knows the history of their marrage but those kids certainly have both parents. And they are pretty well rounded. I know i know, what about those gangsters in say LA? They have parents too. Their parents are in the same gang. They ignore any cencus.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  5. #115
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    One reason marriage is not as fundamental an institution today is because the genders have more equal roles. Marriage as a historical institution implies some degree of ownership over the woman.
    One-sided ownership has no place in marriage. Also, can two people own each other? This is marriage. Why must belonging imply subjugation? This is a Western conceit based on the logical extension of individuality as a concept.

    It was a means of transferring inheritance property to remain within a family name. This is still implied by accepting the man's surname to become part of his family.
    You are completely oversimplifying.

    Marriage is a more stable structure when one gender (historically women) is in a position of less power.
    Women have less "power" now that they have lost their value as wives and mothers. They are treated as disposable when they age past their sexual lives. Likewise, I would argue that women had more power when they had a role.

    In this way, they rely on the man for material resources and do not have a viable means to survive outside the support of a man. It has only been in the last few decades that the woman's role in marriage has approached equality. It is interesting that this is the same time frame where marriage as a social institution has less stability.
    1. Men rely on women, too. It is mutual interdependence.
    2. Women were more equal before. They are not equal now, they merely have the same jobs.

    It is more challenging for both parties to have the means to be independent, but make a daily choice to remain together. That kind of commitment is also intimidating to some people because it requires a high degree of attentiveness and does not remain intact as easily with power imbalances.
    These "commitments" in unwed situations are more tenuous.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #116
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    One-sided ownership has no place in marriage. Also, can two people own each other? This is marriage. Why must belonging imply subjugation? This is a Western conceit based on the logical extension of individuality as a concept.
    That sounds reasonable, but it has only had a few decades to develop as a marriage style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Women have less "power" now that they have lost their value as wives and mothers. They are treated as disposable when they age past their sexual lives. Likewise, I would argue that women had more power when they had a role.
    So they don't have a role as professionals? What role does their intellect and skills play in society? Without the role of mother or wife, they have less worth in society? Think about what you have said here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    2. Women were more equal before. They are not equal now, they merely have the same jobs.
    Are they equal to men in their skill and contribution in those jobs?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #117
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    My Mother was a professional. In a career and as a mother. Mother is not on the list of professional titles?
    Last edited by professor goodstain; 04-08-2009 at 11:28 PM. Reason: syntax error
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  8. #118
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    So they don't have a role as professionals? What role does their intellect and skills play in society? Without the role of mother or wife, they have less worth? Think about what you have said here.
    Any professional has a role and worth. But, not as a man or woman. Only as a professional. In pushing equality as some sort of ideal based on doing the same work, we have diminished value of the gender roles. We have put men and women in competition with one another.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #119
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    My Mother was a professional. In a career and as a mother. Mother is not the title of professional?
    The value of the role of women as mothers is not in dispute. That is the one thing in agreement. The value of women in the world that society has often associated with the label, professional is possibly in dispute. Think of it like this: men are valuable as fathers, correct? But if that was the only role in which they were valued would that be a comprehensive way of viewing men?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Any professional has a role and worth. But, not as a man or woman. Only as a professional. In pushing equality as some sort of ideal based on doing the same work, we have diminished value of the gender roles. We have put men and women in competition with one another.
    So your position is "different but equal"? Distinct and different roles produces equality? The underlying assumption that must be proven is that the separate roles produce equally appropriate matches for the two categories as individuals. The set of needs for each gender should be demonstrated as being distinctly different. I read you as expressing two opposite positions: the first is that within the same context (a professional role) gender differences are irrelevant, but within the larger context of society gender roles takes on primary significance? These two positions are difficult to reconcile when taken to their full implications.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #120
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Are they equal to men in their skill and contribution in those jobs?
    It probably depends on the job and the candidates. I would expect certain professions to be dominated by either men or women based on innate tendencies related to the strengths engendered in each sex.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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