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  1. #251
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Nightning, how does one tell this setpoint?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #252
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Nightning, how does one tell this setpoint?
    I don't know of any "scientific" measurement for weight setpoint. But it's the theoretical weight you should be at given you eat a balance diet and get some exercise.

    The easiest way for me to explain this is through an analogy... If you know about chemistry, how a buffering system works. The pH of the solution stays near constant near pKa of the buffer. Within this buffering range, you can add acid or base to the system and the pH of the solution changes very little. However if you add enough acid to move beyond the buffering capacity of the system, pH rapidly changes.


    The figure isn't very good but you can see the dip in the S-shaped curve.

    Your weight is like pH... instead of adding acid or base, you're changing your caloric intake and energy you burn through exercise and that affects your weight.

    So your setpoint would be close to whatever you weight normally given that you're not dieting or gorging yourself or being inactive (just sitting there) for days or if you're ill.
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  3. #253
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Obesity and mortality: a review of the epidemiolog...[Am J Clin Nutr. 1997] - PubMed Result

    There's an example of a study where obesity and increased mortality are linked directly enough to be considered causation. More studies I've just googled speak of a direct link between obesity and certain diseases. Obesity != overweight, for the record.
    I don't see the causation link here either, however, only the strong correlation link... The question is if a high level of calorie intake, separate from nutrition and exercise, causes significant health problems. Until exercise and nutrition are factored out (as known factors that have a notable influence!), it's hard to claim causation. It's certainly not unreasonable to expect that the further up the scale you go, the more people you have that are there because they are predisposed and have a high net calorie intake that is unhealthy. Even controls to affect this would involve a change in diet and/or exercise, making it really difficult to create a controlled study.

    Having said all that, I do agree with the large scale shift and am not intentionally defending the upper quartiles... so in terms of this thread, it's a bit of splitting hairs. The majority are almost certainly on the far side of their natural weight, due to not exercising and taking too many calories... however, almost all of them will have a propensity. The heuristic that is being used is that everyone should be close to middle weight... that is not realistic. The article linked mentions this a bit.

  4. #254
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I feel I have been misunderstood in this thread and it's been bothering me so I just want to make my position on this issue clear;

    I believe;

    • Raising obese children (without genetic problems) is abusive
    • Obesity is a very real and widespread problem
    • I don't believe in fat acceptance, I believe in accepting these people as human beings that make mistakes (love the sinner, hate the sin, that kind of thing)
    • I don't believe that fat always = lazy
    • I believe that people taking responsibility for themselves is a great idealogy (of course people should be responsible for their actions!), however the reality of the situation is that a lot of these people aren't, left on their own accord the problem will persist, expecting them to take action without any external influence is unrealistic
    • Sometimes you have to help people help themselves
    • Focusing on the economic, social and psychological reasons people make these decisions is probably a good start (rather than just focusing on laziness)
    • If it is to be solved in the west, our governments involvement seems pretty much unavoidable


    That is all.
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  5. #255
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quinlan, this is exactly what I understood you to mean from your posts. Thanks for taking the time to post and thereby draw out responses from the OP an others on the subject....the posts provided interesting illustrations of character.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    People aren't railing against the "overweight baby" syndrome. It's against "why don't fat people just stop eating an exercise, those lazy pigs" comments.
    Exactly.

    It would be far better and more effective to start a targeted promotion of nutrition education for children's diets than rail on and on about fat people. Look at how advertising fools people. I've seen sugary breakfast cereals promoting how healthy they are because they have "whole grain" just because there's some oats thrown in there.

    I understand the railing, I really do. I've had overweight relatives and alcoholic ones and I really have disgust over alcohol abuse, but intellectually I know the issue is not as simple as "put the bottle down, ya stupid drunk!" and investing so emotional energy into how other people chose to live (adults) is just futile and waste of energy. Berating people isn't going to help anything.

    This kind of thinking reminds me of when a popular TV personality (for God knows why) got in an anorexic's face and shouted "You gotta eat or you're gonna DIE!"

    Oh really? That's the cure your doctorate tells you to give her? And you think the people around her haven't already tried that one?

    In the most extreme cases, surely these are issues for child welfare and safety departments to sort out...but in a free society, these issues are harder to deal with, but I'd hate to see it used as an excuse to limit liberties on a grand scale like limiting food choices at stores or groceries keeping track of food purchases for insurance companies. It would be good if food mfg were not allowed to make health claims to promote their products except just the bare facts of the matter.

    And if anyone really thinks fast food suddenly became healthier because you can ask for some apple wedges, well that's another case of people falling for propaganda and yes it happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    Quinlan, this is exactly what I understood you to mean from your posts. Thanks for taking the time to post and thereby draw out responses from the OP an others on the subject....the posts provided interesting illustrations of character.
    +1

    It was a jaw dropper.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Actually, "feeling blue" can happen daily, over the course of a year or longer. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it. Depression is one of the most easily cured illnesses. 80-90% in every category can be treated with success. The issue is many people have a stigma with receiving therapy. So, who knows the number of people that aren't accounted for.

    It's not that simple.

    Drugs Cure Depression In Half of Patients - washingtonpost.com

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I feel I have been misunderstood in this thread and it's been bothering me so I just want to make my position on this issue clear;

    I believe;

    • Raising obese children (without genetic problems) is abusive
    • Obesity is a very real and widespread problem
    • I don't believe in fat acceptance, I believe in accepting these people as human beings that make mistakes (love the sinner, hate the sin, that kind of thing)
    • I don't believe that fat always = lazy
    • I believe that people taking responsibility for themselves is a great idealogy (of course people should be responsible for their actions!), however the reality of the situation is that a lot of these people aren't, left on their own accord the problem will persist, expecting them to take action without any external influence is unrealistic
    • Sometimes you have to help people help themselves
    • Focusing on the economic, social and psychological reasons people make these decisions is probably a good start (rather than just focusing on laziness)
    • If it is to be solved in the west, our governments involvement seems pretty much unavoidable


    That is all.
    I struggle to think who in this thread has disagreed with that.

    Someone mentioned mass obesity not being a problem, other than that though...

    All I can say otherwise is, there are two ways I can think of to call an obese person lazy:-

    1. Call them lazy on virtue of being obese.

    2. Call them lazy on virtue of their habits.

    Neither way is necessarily done as an attempt to reduce obesity. No one here has advocated 1, some have advocated 2. Whether either way helps, hinders, or does nothing to levels of obesity is up for debate.

    I would say both types sometimes help, sometimes hinder, and sometimes do nothing.

    Exercising more and eating less/healthily is a solution, probably the only solution. It's how to implement it that's important.

  9. #259
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Child Obesity Is Linked to Chemicals in Plastics - City Room Blog - NYTimes.com

    Quote Originally Posted by that article
    Exposure to chemicals used in plastics may be linked with childhood obesity, according to results from a long-term health study on girls who live in East Harlem and surrounding communities that were presented to community leaders on Thursday by researchers at Mount Sinai Medical Center.

    The chemicals in question are called phthalates, which are used to to make plastics pliable and in personal care products. Phthalates, which are absorbed into the body, are a type of endocrine disruptor chemicals that affect glands and hormones that regulate many bodily functions. They have raised concerns as possible carcinogens for more than a decade, but attention over their role in obesity is relatively recent.

    The research linking endocrine disruptors with obesity has been growing recently. A number of animal studies have shown that exposing mice to some endocrine disruptors causes them be more obese. Chemicals that have raised concern include Bisphenol A (which is used in plastics) and perfluorooctanoic acid, which is often used to create nonstick surfaces.

    However, the East Harlem study, which includes data published in the journal Epidemiology, presents some of the first evidence linking obesity and endocrine disruptors in humans.
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  10. #260
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    Some baby foods less nutritious than a cheeseburger, says report | UK news | The Guardian

    Cheeseburgers and chocolate biscuits are more nutritious than some of the most popular baby foods from Britain's leading brands, a report claims.

    The food company Heinz comes under fire in the research which found that Farley's rusks a classic weaning food contained more sugar than chocolate digestives, while its mini cheese biscuits, aimed at toddlers, contained more saturated fat per 100g than a McDonald's quarter pounder burger with cheese.

    The survey by the Children's Food Campaign of 107 foods marketed for consumption by babies and young children all bought from mainstream British supermarkets shows that a high proportion of these foods are high in saturated fat, salt and sugar. Only half of all the products surveyed were low in saturated fat, salt and sugar, while for Heinz products this figure was one in four....(more at link)

    An interesting page on Phthalates in foods and in the general enviroment:

    http://assets.panda.org/downloads/fa...lates_food.pdf (PDF)

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