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  1. #211
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    For the record, that is precisely the language used by clinicians to diagnose clinical depression. Your own lack of knowledge on the subject is becoming quite apparent.
    2 weeks of feeling blue is clinical depression? I doubt that would be enough to diagnose someone as clinically depressed, other factors would need to be taken into account.

    Up to one in four women and one in 10 men can expect to experience depression at some time in their lives.
    Depression - Everybody - Health Information for New Zealanders

    So no, not "everbody" gets depression.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  2. #212
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Yes it's true that people have different rate and efficiency of metabolism. My metabolism for one is quite high, which means it's impossible for me to gain weight (trust me, I tried). However the thing nobody thinks about is that skinny people like me aren't safe from cardiovascular diseases. Weight is only a surrogate indicator... you're better off looking at elasticity and % blockage of your coronary arteries. Yet weight and appearance is all people focus on.

    Why can't people focus on things that are proven to improve our health... getting sufficient vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc and getting proper amount of exercise rather than being so concern about weight? Diet change and moderate exercise has been proven long ago through experimental studies to work. Why just look at correlational studies and guess about causality based on those?
    YES.

    THANK YOU.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Have you said how you're going to help them?
    Good grief, I'm certainly feeling something now. Congrats! You've done a bang up job of inducing a state of utter exasperation. Is this a real question or a case of "let's see if I can completely drive the T to distraction with my total inanity?"

    Have you not seen the multiple references to years spent in the fitness industry? I have trained body builders, house wives, and geriatrics...and I've also made it a point to provide my own children with a model for a healthy lifestyle that includes reasonable eating habits and physical activity. What more shall I do? A reality TV show so folks like you can cheer on these poor souls from the comfort of your couch while you sneer at the unfeeling trainers and nutritionists who make these sad sacks exert themselves?

  4. #214
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    You go on with with the bleeding heart thing while those of us who actually grasp the magnitude of the problem get down to the business of trying to help these people actually do something about it.
    Speaking for myself, I have to say that it's less bleeding heart-ism for me and more that I'm not convinced there *is* a huge problem/obesity epidemic. As previously mentioned, I have read a LOT of information on this topic. Before reading up on it to this extent, I was definitely of the opinion that being fat meant the fat person was unhealthy, end of story. I'm no longer convinced. Does this mean that others should be less convinced simply because I have become less convinced? No. I'm just saying that it's not emotion that's led me to my current beliefs on the issue - it's the recognition that it isn't as black and white as many people seem to think it is. Someone else above mentioned correlation/causation and ditto to that.

    Also, my feelings on the issue of personal responsibility are separate from what I've said, above. It definitely sounds reasonable to say that people who choose to behave in ways that are detrimental to their health should not be supported by that state/others. But at the same time, "detrimental" is a damned large category. It's not just smokers and overeaters. The point about driving was, to me, a legitimate one. Getting in a car is a conscious choice to expose oneself to danger. What about sportspeople? I have an effed up back from years of childhood gymnastics (and have had medical procedures paid for by the state due to it), and the injury rates of professional athletes are very high - their joints wear out, they need replacements etc. etc. Where do we propose to draw the line? Should we refuse disability payments to ex athletes because they *chose* to play a sport? I'm not saying it isn't problematic - the idea of being held responsible for the choices of others, but I don't know if it's avoidable, and I do know that I don't morally like the idea of living in a society where we deem certain people worthy of support and others not worthy. I don't like it mostly because it seems like a moral judgement, not a cold logical one. If it is a cold logical one, then shouldn't we penalize ALL conscious, self-harming behaviour? And if the answer is yes, then how the hell would anyone qualify for state support?

    Lastly, I just want to say that I find the idea of disallowing fat people from having/raising children repugnant. I have friends who think people who drive SUVs and don't believe in global warming should also be prevented from having kids. Their reasoning? These people are harming themselves and the planet, therefore we cannot allow them to produce more children who will behave in the same way. Is this not problematic at all to you? The idea that it's one's right to judge who should and who should not be allowed to have kids?

    Oops, one more thing. I'm talking about adults, not kids. I think most of us are on here. I already stated that my beliefs change when it comes to children.

    EDIT: Qre:us (and everyone) - that second link I posted to was just linked at the bottom of the original article. I don't know anything about the authors, it was posted just out of interest/on a whim. If one is *truly* interested in exploring this issue further I'm going to again recommend the Paul Campos book.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    2 weeks of feeling blue is clinical depression? I doubt that would be enough to diagnose someone as clinically depressed, other factors would need to be taken into account.


    Depression - Everybody - Health Information for New Zealanders

    So no, not "everbody" gets depression.
    Why don't you take a look at the DSM-IV, the silly little book used by actual clinicians in the field? "Feeling blue" has been a long-standing part of the language for practitioners, sometimes it's replaced by "sad" or "down", and two weeks is standard for a preliminary diagnosis.

  6. #216
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Good grief, I'm certainly feeling something now. Congrats! You've done a bang up job of inducing a state of utter exasperation. Is this a real question or a case of "let's see if I can completely drive the T to distraction with my total inanity?"
    Don't hurt yourself.

    Have you not seen the multiple references to years spent in the fitness industry? I have trained body builders, house wives, and geriatrics...and I've also made it a point to provide my own children with a model for a healthy lifestyle that includes reasonable eating habits and physical activity. What more shall I do? A reality TV show so folks like you can cheer on these poor souls from the comfort of your couch while you sneer at the unfeeling trainers and nutritionists who make these sad sacks exert themselves?
    So if we all join the fitness industry then the problem of obesity will be solved? Great, very practical.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  7. #217
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    So we have two people, one who eats a lot of fast food, and gets very fat, another who eats a lot of fast food, and doesn't get very fat. However, both get the same amount of cholesterol in their diets.

    They both have a heart attack too early. They both die.

    I guess it doesn't really matter how much more pressure the fat one was given about her weight and 'health' compared to the skinny one now, because they're both dead.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Why can't people focus on things that are proven to improve our health... getting sufficient vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc and getting proper amount of exercise rather than being so concern about weight? Diet change and moderate exercise has been proven long ago through experimental studies to work. Why just look at correlational studies and guess about causality based on those?
    Some individuals want proof that the majority of obese people don't really eat healthy, and forgo regular exercise. Apparently, obese people became that way solely due to metabolism. Excess consumption and lack of activity had nothing to do with it. The obese eat healthy and within a normal range. Exercise frequently and consistently. Yet, they still can't lose weight.

    Dear Nightning, how can that be?


    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Is this a real question or a case of "let's see if I can completely drive the T to distraction with my total inanity?"
    I've wondered if some of the questions are actually real too.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Don't hurt yourself.



    So if we all join the fitness industry then the problem of obesity will be solved? Great, very practical.
    Don't worry I won't. I'll just have to keep in mind what I'm dealing with here. I've had plenty of practice dealing with the irrational, I have a four year old remember.

    As far as the rest goes, how about starting with the people around you genius? Your own friends, family, children if you have them. Just don't ask me what I'm doing. I walk the walk...you, apparently, are far more interested in talk, talk, talk.

  10. #220
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Why don't you take a look at the DSM-IV, the silly little book used by actual clinicians in the field? "Feeling blue" has been a long-standing part of the language for practitioners, sometimes it's replaced by "sad" or "down", and two weeks is standard for a preliminary diagnosis.
    Just looked it up;

    According to the DSM-IV, a person who suffers from major depressive disorder must either have a depressed mood or a loss of interest or pleasure in daily activities consistently for at least a two week period. This mood must represent a change from the person's normal mood; social, occupational, educational or other important functioning must also be negatively impaired by the change in mood. A depressed mood caused by substances (such as drugs, alcohol, medications) or which is part of a general medical condition is not considered to be major depressive disorder. Major depressive disorder cannot be diagnosed if a person has a history of manic, hypomanic, or mixed episodes (e.g., a bipolar disorder) or if [it carries on talking about all the other things to take into account]
    So I was right and your dismissive attitude was misplaced, clinical depression is not as simple as being blue for a few weeks and I would be very surprised if the rate of clinical depression is even close to 100% of people.

    So even though I'm right, the kind of depression I was talking about is the kind that might prevent them from helping themseleves (severe), so feeling blue is irrelevant.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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