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  1. #201
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I agree that being obese does not imply one is unhealthy, however being obese does directly cause increased health risks. I'm referring to people with a significant body fat percentage (25+ for men, 32+ for women), I have no idea what that is for young children.
    Does it? Meta-studies show that the link is primarily bad nutrition + lack of exercise = heavier + unhealthy. I get to say it... correlation is not causation!

    (Disclaimer - it can get technical in here, differentiating weight/fat/cholesterol/etc... and I'm not an expert in this area by any means. It's what I gathered from a high-level view of metastudies.)


    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. Laziness and excess calories.
    How many calories are in an apple? When we eat an apple, do both you and I net the same amount of calories? No, we don't. This is a fundamental problem with metabolism and the like. I can be active and fat and lazy and skinny, and we can both have the same diet.

    If you take the extreme few, or you take the aggregate shift, then it's you can label in generalities.

    Active fat people aren't any healthier than skinny people that exercise the same amount, with a similar diet, that possess no genetic abnormalities.
    AFAIK, they tend to be, in part because they have a more efficient metabolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    McDonald's sells fruit and vegetable sides. Even salads. If someone can't afford that, surely they can eat only half of their value menu burger. Or is eating less of what's available not an actual option?
    No, not an option - you need nutrients, and density matters. Cheap food = high energy/low density.

  2. #202
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I said I was addressing the adult overweight thing. You are shooting all over and then refuting things by talking about a different issue than what someone was responding to.

    This has become ridiculous.

  3. #203
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    If you've not been depressed yet, good for you. Live long enough and it will happen. When your parent/spouse/child dies or you lose an important job/ability/source of pleasure you will "feel blue for a period longer than two weeks".
    Oops, I tend to think of depression as clinical depression, sorry about that. I don't think "feeling blue" would prevent someone from helping themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Less food, more activity. Get it? got it? goooood.
    That's much easier said than done (this is where the other factors come in) like Jeremys case, people like him get tarred with your generalisations and your over simplification of a complex issue. You guys are looking at the worst of this group and applying that as a generalistaion over all of them. I'm looking at the best of that group and saying "hey they don't deserve to be talked about like that!".

    The rest of it falls into place once these first two steps are taken. It really is that simple. Trust me, I've seen it hundreds of time. As far as my background goes, it's more than adequate to support the claims I've made (both educationally and vocationally). You want to inspire people, make things easy to understand and be honest with them. Nobody feels good when they've got some Pollyanna bullshitting them how great they are, especially when they're perfectly aware that things aren't great at all. It's patronizing and obnoxious.
    They ARE great, sure they have made mistakes, their choices may have been bad but they still people who deserve respect and understanding. You fail buy putting yourself in your current state of mind, into their shoes, when what you need to do is put yourself in their state of mind as well as their shoes. Then perhaps you'll understand a bit better. They are very well aware of their condition, more aware than you could possibly imagine, telling them a fact they know all to well only hurts them.

    Perhaps this is a battle of Te vs Fi, where you guys see numbers and inefficiencies, I see individual human beings, I feel their pain, I see how hard life is for them, I can forgive their mistakes without excusing them. You guys on the other hand seem driven to label them, put them in a box and reduce a complex issue into it's barest simplicities. When you do this I feel you don't do justice to these people as individuals and the exceptions to your labels and generalities like Jeremy still get lumped together with the truly lazy freeloaders.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  4. #204
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your comparison would work much better if you compared Obesity to speeding. Reckless driving outside of the recommended and necessary habits increases your risk for accidents and injury, just as consuming food in a way that is outside recommended and necessary portions/ingredients increases health risks and such. Both comparisons have an element of personal responsibility, regulation, and restraint attached, while your original did not.

    If obesity is a problem to be solved, then it helps to point at a cause of the problem. The study indicates children are being subjected to lifestyle choices that lead to increasing amounts of them being obese, which is unhealthy. Children at 4 or 5 years old aren't in a position to take the steps required to solve the problem themselves, but the parents are, and failure to do so should honestly be considered neglect. While there are people like Jeremy who have actual diseases and will battle them for the rest of their lives, how many cases can be changed by lifestyle changes? I'd argue a lot, based on the evidence Binary Numbers has displayed thus far.
    I agree with everything you've said here, although you could say that the very act of driving (or putting your kids in a car) is reckless as the chance of death or injury out on the roads is so high.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If you take the extreme few, or you take the aggregate shift, then it's you can label in generalities.

    AFAIK, they tend to be, in part because they have a more efficient metabolism.

    No, not an option - you need nutrients, and density matters. Cheap food = high energy/low density.
    It's not the minority or "extreme few", by any stretch of the imagination. It's widely known, how obese and inactive America is. This is the country people talk about, when they want to demonstrate the dangers of choosing to consume mammoth proportions and forgo exercise. It's not a myth. It is fact. Fat people are everywhere here, and it's only getting worse.

    Isn't the metabolism answer obvious? Fat people have more to burn. So, they do. While the thin people burn less than their bulky counterparts, it still maintains their weight at exactly the same efficiency. Assuming, the two groups are similar in every respect except for weight.

    Poor people don't always have a nutrient option. If all they can afford is low quality food, they have to make it work. They can and will, eventually lose weight by eating less. Period.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I said I was addressing the adult overweight thing. You are shooting all over and then refuting things by talking about a different issue than what someone was responding to.

    This has become ridiculous.
    Really? Next time, try to format the message you want to convey more clearly. It seems as if you're addressing more than obese adults.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I wish my life was so easy that I didn't need to have compassion on people.

    I don't know that I agree with the "poor people eat unhealthy so they get fat"

    Eat less, exercise is right. I just know as I get older it gets more difficult, and I tend to think curvy on people over 30 looks more natural anyway.

    I breastfed my four kids, btw. It is possible to be a healthy chunky baby.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Oops, I tend to think of depression as clinical depression, sorry about that. I don't think "feeling blue" would prevent someone from helping themselves.
    For the record, that is precisely the language used by clinicians to diagnose clinical depression. Your own lack of knowledge on the subject is becoming quite apparent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post

    Perhaps this is a battle of Te vs Fi, where you guys see numbers and inefficiencies, I see individual human beings, I feel their pain, I see how hard life is for them, I can forgive their mistakes without excusing them. You guys on the other hand seem driven to label them, put them in a box and reduce a complex issue into it's barest simplicities. When you do this I feel you don't do justice to these people as individuals and the exceptions to your labels and generalities like Jeremy still get lumped together with the truly lazy freeloaders.
    Who's doing the lumping and reducing now? Your ad hominem attacks are doing nothing to boost your credibility. You go on with with the bleeding heart thing while those of us who actually grasp the magnitude of the problem get down to the business of trying to help these people actually do something about it. I really would like to work on developing my own Fi a bit, but if it means that basic common sense is going to disappear from my life I may have to reconsider.

    By "feeling" their pain, all you're doing is helping perpetuate and spread it...brilliant.

  8. #208
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    get down to the business of trying to help these people actually do something about it.
    Have you said how you're going to help them?
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  9. #209
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    How many calories are in an apple? When we eat an apple, do both you and I net the same amount of calories? No, we don't. This is a fundamental problem with metabolism and the like. I can be active and fat and lazy and skinny, and we can both have the same diet.
    Yes it's true that people have different rate and efficiency of metabolism. My metabolism for one is quite high, which means it's impossible for me to gain weight (trust me, I tried). However the thing nobody thinks about is that skinny people like me aren't safe from cardiovascular diseases. Weight is only a surrogate indicator... you're better off looking at elasticity and % blockage of your coronary arteries. Yet weight and appearance is all people focus on.

    Why can't people focus on things that are proven to improve our health... getting sufficient vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc and getting proper amount of exercise rather than being so concern about weight? Diet change and moderate exercise has been proven long ago through experimental studies to work. Why just look at correlational studies and guess about causality based on those?


    No, not an option - you need nutrients, and density matters. Cheap food = high energy/low density.
    Density... you can get by that problem with processed carbs... eat smaller portions at higher frequency. Essentially do what people with diabetes do. The less your body has to auto-regulate blood glucose, the less metabolic conversion necessary for sugar and fats. Which means less free floating HDL in your blood and thus less chances of plaque buildup.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  10. #210
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Have you said how you're going to help them?
    We as individuals can't do much. The government must be the one imposing these changes. And the only thing they can do is educate and perhaps provide incentives to these people to change their habits. Not easy to do at all.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

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