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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    These stats are clearly for the overall population and are not specific to obese people. Unless all american adults are obese and all young people in grades 9-12 are as well.

    Yes exactly, so you agree it's not as simple as overeating, you've mentioned a variety of factors that come into play and I bet there are countless more you haven't thought of either. You don't treat depression by saying "JUST BE HAPPY!" and you don't treat obesity by saying "JUST EAT LESS!". I'm sure you sleep soundly at night knowing that all the fat people are lazy and you are so much better and more deserving than them.

    I suppose the difference is, I realise people make mistakes and are willing to give them second chances.
    Again, all the stats are based on obesity and chronic illness. Everything on the page is compiled data specifically related to that subject. If you're truly not joking, it's highly possible there's a malfunction regarding perception in your brain.

    There are NO GENETIC reasons aside from Prader-Willi Syndrome that causes an individual to uncontrollably eat. The fault lies with the obese person. A jacked thyroid and slow metabolism can only account for so much. It's not enough to make someone medically obese, unless they eat an unhealthy amount of excess. Depression and all the other contributing factors aren't a legitimate excuse for staying in that state. Should society coddle and enable drug addicts, alcoholics, and excessive smokers? Obesity stems from an addiction to food. Overcoming it isnt an easy task to accomplish, but it's within an individual's control 9.5 times out of 10.

    I think the same about everyone that asks for government support, after purposely abusing their body with substances. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Fiscal conservatism and wasted tax money does.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    The OP expresses remarkable concern with the effect of the obese on his/her quality of life. Have they taken this matter up with their own legislators in an effort to correct this percieved mis-allotment of disability resources? With a "background" in genetic studies as claimed, the arguments of the OP might be effective persuasive to those who engineer our disability legislation.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  3. #143
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Empirical evidence.
    That was not empirical evidence, there was no direct relationship between weight loss and exercise. It's obvious, yes, but it is not empirical. For it to be empirical, you'd need to exercise high BMI people to see what the effect is. **

    I bring this up because I have a friend who is high BMI, is a doctor, and is a hell of a lot more active than me. Genetics plays a huge part... different isolated effects are between 30 and 50% ( (like here), but there are many that deal with specific biology).

    Association - Disability Due to Obesity
    77 million, 137,000 people. Or, about 0.046% of the population - and it seems like double digit percentages are 'obese'... lets call it a relatively low 10% of the overall population.

    Does that not mesh with your comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    The truth is many of them draw disability with no other health issues. That seems like supporting addictions, which is a waste of tax money.
    [...]
    Medically obese is another story. There are exceptions, but very rarely
    Seems to me that it is not many of them, and that 1/200 or so is very rarely.

    ** Edit: Just realised that you were talking about something else - so this is meant to address the chain of thought that they 'just need to exercise 'more' being empirically evidenced.

  4. #144
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Even if every single one of 01011010's premises are true (which is hard to believe) people still shouldn't be simplified with one label and dismissed because they are "fat and lazy"

    I also think the whole "they get disability" is a strange argument. "Obese people" really don't need to be painted with a brush that only applies to a few of them. If you want to rail agaist disability I'm sure there are plenty of other people using it inappropriatly that may even be thin!

    I find it hard to believe that someone's life is so in control that they can't understand someone else having a struggle.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    The OP expresses remarkable concern with the effect of the obese on his/her quality of life. Have they taken this matter up with their own legislators in an effort to correct this percieved mis-allotment of disability resources? With a "background" in genetic studies as claimed, the arguments of the OP might be effective persuasive to those who engineer our disability legislation.
    They haven't affected the quality of my life. Truth is some of them are free-loaders. Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    ** Edit: Just realised that you were talking about something else - so this is meant to address the chain of thought that they 'just need to exercise 'more' being empirically evidenced.
    It's obviously not just exercise. I have stated multiple times that caloric intake would also have to be decreased. BMI is faulty. Everyone knows.

    I'm addressing the category of people with an abnormally high fat percentage. Not people that are naturally built heavier. Outright obesity (over 100lbs+ of fat only) is a self induced extreme. Not an issue of genetics.

  6. #146
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    The study supports/proves the idea, on a basic level, that it is possible to be fat/obese *and* healthy. There is not a 100% direct causal link between obesity and ill health. It is more complex than being fat = ill health.
    The bolded is not what you quoted of the article and how it presented/interpreted the findings:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Oh and another one, from the same site, different authors: It’s official: you can be fat and fit | spiked

    The German study found that insulin sensitivity was not statistically different in obese individuals compared with normal weight individuals. In effect, the image of hordes of fatties with metabolic problems leading to high levels of heart disease and diabetes is a myth. As the German research team put it, a ‘metabolically benign obesity that is not accompanied by insulin resistance and early atherosclerosis exists in humans’ (3). This is indeed unwelcome news to the obesity crusaders, for it shows just how scientifically unjustified their claims are, how generally untruthful the government’s claims about the dangers of being overweight are, how compromised is their health advice about overweight and obesity, and how unwarranted are the calls for draconian government interventions such as tobacco-like warnings on so-called unhealthy foods. As MaryFran Sowers, one of the co-authors of the US study, told the New York Times: ‘We use “overweight” almost indiscriminately sometimes. But there is lots of individual variation within that, and we need to be cognizant of that as we think about what our health messages should be.
    The german study:
    N=314
    Categories =4
    Say, it's equal #s: 314/4= 78.5 (for each group)

    25% of those in the obese group would your bolded apply to. 25% of 79 = 20 (or slightly more) people of the 314.

    Meaning, the way it was presented didn't state that only a quarter (MINORITY) of those with obesity may have a protective effect with regards to insulin resistence, but, that obese people (MAJORITY) should NOT worry about these risks AS IT IS A MYTH. This is misrepresentation. I don't know about you, but, I am uneasy with such shadiness in presentation of studies, esp. when only a quarter, would this be applicable to, thus, the majority are still at risk. This makes your red quote lose its intellectual integrity.

    I would even accept how you put it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    The study supports/proves the idea, on a basic level, that it is possible to be fat/obese *and* healthy.
    Which is very different from the slant that the red passage you quoted put on it. I have issues with such intellectual cover-up to 'prove a political point'.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Even if every single one of 01011010's premises are true (which is hard to believe) people still shouldn't be simplified with one label and dismissed because they are "fat and lazy"

    I also think the whole "they get disability" is a strange argument. "Obese people" really don't need to be painted with a brush that only applies to a few of them. If you want to rail agaist disability I'm sure there are plenty of other people using it inappropriatly that may even be thin!

    I find it hard to believe that someone's life is so in control that they can't understand someone else having a struggle.
    You missed the part where I admitted disliking anyone sponging off the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I think the same about everyone that asks for government support, after purposely abusing their body with substances. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Fiscal conservatism and wasted tax money does.
    You also missed the part where I stated there are other contributing factors like depression etc. Honestly, it's no different from any other substance addiction. It's not appropriate to enable an alcoholic. Why enable food addiction?

    The struggle is exactly the point. People overcome substance issues and other difficult circumstances in life. It can be done, and is everyday. There isn't a single person that doesn't encounter adversity. You don't see everyone else eating themselves into an adipose tissue prison. That is a choice. Their drug of choice. People become addicted to the chemical reactions that occur when overeating. I'm not going to feel empathy for a person that's unable to stop putting excess food in their mouth. Nor would I, for an addict with a needle in their arm. If those individuals want to be masochistic and defile their body, let them. Yet, it's irrational to expect people to sympathize with self inflicted abuse.

  8. #148
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    I'm really puzzled by the advocacy for sympathy contained in some of these posts. Showing unconditional sympathy for individuals who choose to destroy themselves serves no positive end. These are people who have created their situations, they are not victims (except for the children of course). Once you reach adulthood and have achieved an autonomous state, the choices you make (and the accompanying consequences) are your own. While I certainly don't think it's appropriate to stand around pointing fingers and making fun of someone for his screwed up state, I don't think that's appropriate in any circumstance. Nevertheless, to expect empathy from those of us who choose on a daily basis to not destroy our bodies is absolutely asinine. Why in the world would that be the right response??? Every single one of us has to face adversity at some point, crumbling under it and passing the buck is not a way to deal with it. We're all "stuck" in some way, it's incumbent on the individual to figure out how to work out a way to deal with the "stuckness". You cannot help a person by encouraging them to wallow in her own sick state, and that's precisely what all this gooey sentimentality does. If you really want to help, take that friend/relative/associate and say, "yes you are really in bad shape, now let's do something about it". Don't lie and tell them "it's alright, you've got a great character" because 1) it's not true (a good character doesn't destroy itself) and 2) you become a piss poor friend when you enable the wallowing.

  9. #149
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    The point is you guys are picking easy targets. It's always easy to say someone else should be fixed.

    You could rewrite your posts about anything. Generic "I'm better than.."

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    The point is you guys are picking easy targets. It's always easy to say someone else should be fixed.

    You could rewrite your posts about anything. Generic "I'm better than.."
    It's not about being better than anyone. Or mocking them. Sugar-coating is for enablers, and people that want to hide from the truth.

    It's an absolute crime against humanity for an obese toddler to exist. It's one of the most disturbing pieces of news I've come across. The topic spread to adults, because they're in charge of the children. Not to mention the cultural phenomena of entitlement, and not taking responsibility. Obese adults often raise obese children. Creating a generation of sloth and greed. This is why the issue is important to explore. It affects the people that are supposedly going to lead the future. Aside from that, who doesn't want their fellow human beings to be in the best health possible? Preaching fat acceptance isn't going to solve anything.

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