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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    My point is that marriage has never just been about being in love. There have always been restrictions on it. Currently, all states have age requirements, and I believe all don't allow blood relatives to marry (not sure about Mississippi. ) Having a requirement that one person be male and one be female doesn't seem like an unreasonable restriction to me.
    In all the other cases you mentioned, the criteria was not arbitrary. The restrictions were put in place to prevent harm.

  2. #52
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Why is that funny? The United States is a republic, not a pure democracy. We have a constitution in place to constrain all branches of government and the voting public from taking too much power.
    Which is exactly why I can't be happy about this development, even though I support the goal of gay-marriage advocates; if a state Supreme Court is able to appropriate this much power for themselves on this particular issue, how is their power limited on any other issue? Instead of a balance-of-powers, we have judicial despotism. The result is that the one group has increased personal liberty and autonamy in one (albeit important) area, while everyone (including gays) has substantially endangered personal liberty and autonamy in all other areas. When the means to achieve an end contribute to the long-term degredation of such an end (that end, in essense, being the maximization of individual liberty and autonamy), then it is inherently a bad thing. And yes, I know this decision was justified on the basis of equal rights, but to give the Judiciary the power to make this broad of an interpretation of equal rights is to effectively give them the power of arbitrary judgement concerning all gray areas, which amounts to virtually unlimited power, in much the same way that the Federal government has effectively unlimited power over state governments due to an overly-broad interpretation of the commerce clause that makes the tenth amendment worthless.

    The analogy isn't perfect, but in my mind I'm linking the alliance between gay-marriage advocates and extreme judicial activists with the alliance between the oppressed peasant class and the aristocrats at the expense of liberal reformers back in nineteenth-century Germany...

  3. #53
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am saying that people are wrong all the time. 90% thought he was great when the country was preparing to invade Afghanistan. That doesn't mean he was good.
    Good or bad wasn't the point I was getting at, my point is would it be appropriate for the government to drop Bush saying, people we believe you made the wrong choice (for president) and we are going to choose the right one that you failed to choose. Is there any moral blips within that statement?




    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Wait, what? How does that work?
    In a system with no bounderies, no government, (I believe in another post in another thread you mentioned it would be nice if there weren't such) its strict majority rule, or rule by strongest group. If not from a government where else do you expect intervention to majority rule?

  4. #54
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    The specific issue aside, I find it interesting or confusing that items are allowed on the ballot yet aren't really allowed in the first place, why waste the money and time giving people a voice (voting), if it isn't allowed to be taken into action?

    Secondly, what kind of precedents can we expect from overturning popular vote (especially by those large margins)?

    If the state believes the public is wrong?

    Itís good for them; they just can't see it?

    We know best?

    If such is allowed now, I have no doubt that popular vote in other areas can be equally subverted just as easily.

    My $.02 on the impact of such actions.
    Legislators who consistently ignore the wishes of their constituents will be voted out of the legislature when their terms are up. That's how democracy self-moderates.


    Also, to OP:

    Yay, progress!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #55
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Legislators who consistently ignore the wishes of their constituents will be voted out of the legislature when their terms are up. That's how democracy self-moderates.
    Which is the likely fate of that governor in Vermont, where gay-marriage advocates are attempting to bring about reform in a way that does not endanger all other freedoms...

  6. #56
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    In all the other cases you mentioned, the criteria was not arbitrary. The restrictions were put in place to prevent harm.
    You're not serious are you? Male-female relations is the basis for the foundation of human society. It's hardly arbitrary.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Legislators who consistently ignore the wishes of their constituents will be voted out of the legislature when their terms are up. That's how democracy self-moderates.

    Ah the first real answer to the question at hand,

    This leaves me thinking two thing, one (at least in CA) that's a 12 year gap, one that allows complete and utter disobedience as many of you guys would would agree under Bush, is that not a long time?

    And this leaves upon a method for democracy to be abused.


    I can't help but feel this wouldn't be acceptable if the conditions were reversved, I don't know if you were in CA at the time o prop 8, but attacks, violence, vandalism, and racial slurs were out of cotrol.

  8. #58
    Your time is gonna come. Oom's Avatar
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    Default An Iowan

    I think that allowing gay marriage is a great thing. One of my co-workers is horrified at how our state legislature could do such a thing. He even got kicked out of one of our classes at school for being a bit too over-zealous towards a gay student. Of course he is in the minority of my community. Most people I know are openly in support of gay marriage.

    Maybe we can keep it this time around and more progress can be made towards equality.

  9. #59
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    You're not serious are you? Male-female relations is the basis for the foundation of human society. It's hardly arbitrary.
    I actually agree, but that's only a reason to be a technical "heterosexists," not to oppose gay marriage-there's no objectively measurable evidence to indicate that legalizing gay marriage (through proper means!) will result in any discernable negative impact on either society or children (in the case of gay adoption), while denying gays this right both limits their personal utility and highly conflicts with the spirit of individual liberty and equality under the law-the normative basis upon which the very legitimacy of our society and institutions are based.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I say get rid of government marriage entirely. Make the paperwork a civil union contract, and then let people get their "marriage" from whichever minister or priest or shaman they like, gay or straight.
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Which is the likely fate of that governor in Vermont, where gay-marriage advocates are attempting to bring about reform in a way that does not endanger all other freedoms...
    Agreed



    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    Sadly that is the only strong defense they have. Even though I am religious, I cannot be a advocate of the religious views when I see people who are sincerely in love trying to get married.
    Defense, yes. Strong? Well...



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