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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    So for the government to try and enable every individual an equal chance at succeeding, everyone would of course need access to good education, health services, food etc.

    I think you sound like a potential liberal to me. And studies have shown liberal Europe to have a better economic mobility rate than the US, because with safety nets and basic public services, people have a better chance at succeeding when their basic needs are met. And especially during an economic crisis, those safety nets serve as a much needed relief to economic suffering.
    Apparently that isn't enough to keep Europeans happy and from rioting in the streets, particularly Frenchmen. They must be pissed off over something other than their "basic needs".

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    No. You said we didn't have a huge poor class, which I disagreed with. You countered that the majority are middle class. But you ignore the huge poor class as you say that.

    I am saying that we do not have a huge poor class, yes. We don't. We're a very wealthy country, and the number of people who are poverty-stricken is very small compared to the number of people who are well-off or getting by.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    So for the government to try and enable every individual an equal chance at succeeding, everyone would of course need access to good education, health services, food etc.

    I think you sound like a potential liberal to me. And studies have shown liberal Europe to have a better economic mobility rate than the US, because with safety nets and basic public services, people have a better chance at succeeding when their basic needs are met. And especially during an economic crisis, those safety nets serve as a much needed relief to economic suffering.
    Actually, there are recent studies that show that economic mobility in the U.S. is quite similar to those of European nations.


    Economic Mobility in the United States
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am saying that we do not have a huge poor class, yes. We don't. We're a very wealthy country, and the number of people who are poverty-stricken is very small compared to the number of people who are well-off or getting by.
    But the point is that the world must be pain free, and America needs to create wealth out of thin air and take it from the rich to eliminate pain for the impoverished. You're such an idiot mercury...

  5. #55
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    To make a point on healthcare: How is our health care system NOT universal? If you walk into a hospital, and you don't have a dime to your name, but you have an eyeball hanging out, the docs HAVE to fix you. They cannot deny you assistance based on your current pay situation. You already have the security of being treated. Why do you want more security than that??
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    To make a point on healthcare: How is our health care system NOT universal? If you walk into a hospital, and you don't have a dime to your name, but you have an eyeball hanging out, the docs HAVE to fix you. They cannot deny you assistance based on your current pay situation. You already have the security of being treated. Why do you want more security than that??

    I worked at a hospital for quite some time. People get charged outrageous amounts for emergency care, but there is always a way to get out of paying. Usually, the state has an agency for helping out indigent people have had emergency care.
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  7. #57
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ Exactly my point. People are whining for universal health care, but they already have it.

    What they REALLY want is someone else to pay for their laziness because they don't wanna pay for health insurance. You can't be denied care if you need it, and you can get assistance if you can't afford it. But most people can afford it, but choose not to get it, and then cry when something's wrong because they don't want to pay.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ Exactly my point. People are whining for universal health care, but they already have it.

    What they REALLY want is someone else to pay for their laziness because they don't wanna pay for health insurance. You can't be denied care if you need it, and you can get assistance if you can't afford it. But most people can afford it, but choose not to get it, and then cry when something's wrong because they don't want to pay.

    There used to be free hospitals in this country, too. Increased government involvement and decreased number of union jobs begat the rise of managed care. Getting a job with health care or buying the health care most affordable for your family should be paramount, but everyone wants to let someone else handle it. I have no idea why we don't have tax-free Health Savings Accounts in this country.
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  9. #59
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ Either do I. I could come to love blue men I believe. Well said.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #60
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    To make a point on healthcare: How is our health care system NOT universal? If you walk into a hospital, and you don't have a dime to your name, but you have an eyeball hanging out, the docs HAVE to fix you. They cannot deny you assistance based on your current pay situation. You already have the security of being treated. Why do you want more security than that??
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I worked at a hospital for quite some time. People get charged outrageous amounts for emergency care, but there is always a way to get out of paying. Usually, the state has an agency for helping out indigent people have had emergency care.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ Exactly my point. People are whining for universal health care, but they already have it.
    I've never worked in a hospital (well, not in a clinical department anyway), so I have no reason to disbelieve that an emergency room must treat you... but that is FAR from universal health care - or even good health care in general. "I guess we have to try to scrape you off of death's door" isn't anywhere near actual complete care - not to mention the number of preventable (or highly-enhanced prognosis-for-early-detection) medical conditions that it completely disregards. Good luck getting a mammogram/prostate cancer screen in an emergency room - something tells me that it's pretty unlikely... and I know that finding breast/prostate (as well as most types) cancer early, as is done with actual non-emergency care, greatly enhances the survival rate and quality of life of survivors.

    Even if you consider emergency-only care medical coverage, you have to admit that it's as pathetic and inefficient a method as you could possibly imagine. Is it better than kicking people into the gutter, saying "no money, no life, too bad"? Sure - it's better. But taking care of the eventual crashing-out of chronic conditions that result from people who can't afford to prevent the crashing-out is not only terrible for the patient, it's also horrendously expensive (and incredibly inefficient) - and like you say, *somebody* pays for the care that is delivered (although I don't for a minute accept that everyone without medical care actually gets to and receives care in emergency rooms). It's like we, as a society, are saying "well, we're not going to pay $20 to change the oil in our car twice a year, but we'll just pay $2500 to replace the engine when it overheats and is destroyed... hope nobody dies in the accident that might cause."

    And all of that ignores the fact that there is medical care that improves the quality of life of the patient that isn't emergency-room treatable. Or do only the (relatively) rich deserve basic care for things like depression, insomnia, and arthritis?
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